The nested quoting is pretty hard to read; hopefully I am responding in the
right places...

On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:30:18AM +0100, tom petch wrote:
> Jim 
> inline <tp> several times
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Schaad [email protected]
> Sent: 21/05/2020 02:21:39
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: COSE <[email protected]> On Behalf Of tom petch
> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 2:36 AM
> 
> I encounter a number of problems with this I-D.  Much of it is about IANA
> Considerations and I note the absence of a reference to RFC8126 which
> provides the basis for much of my comments.
> 
> [JLS]  There is a reason why you are not seeing much of the IANA
> Considerations that you believe should be present, it is because they are in
> draft-ietf-cose-rfc8152bis-algs and draft-ietf-cose-rfc8152bis-struct.  Most
> of them are in the algorithm document.  The presumption is that those two
> documents are going to be processed by IANA before this document is.  I will
> make this explicit.
> 
> <tp>
> Yes, if there had been a Normative Reference to rfc8152bis-algs  then I would 
> have read that first and my comments would have been different!  If the 
> updates to the IANA Registry are all in -algs, then I think it confusing to 
> have them in here as well, rather just say that a new column is defined in 
> -algs
> 
> I do not see any mention of 'filter only' in the two rfc8152bis, only in this 
> I-D and that makes me see this I-D as updating RFC8152 with the consequences 
> thereof.
> 
> 
> 
> RFC8126 specifies a two-tier structure for IANA, of Group name an Registry
> name, which makes it easier to find data, now and in future.
> This I-D makes no mention of the Group name; perhaps easy enough to guess in
> this instance, but better specified.
> 
> The I-D contains references to some of TBD1 to TBD11, with no indication of
> what to do with them.  Looking at the current registry it is apparent that
> Early Allocation took place in 2018 and 2019.  The I-D makes no reference to
> this.  Are all these values to be made permanent?  Some of them? I expect
> the I-D to say.
> [JLS] use the TBD placeholders is normal usage with the values being
> assigned by IANA and replaced in the document.  It would be possible to
> refer to the early assignments, but I personally feel that this is a
> decision for IANA to make.  There may be reasons when the final assignment
> is done that different values need to be used.  (For example, incorrect
> usage of existing values in the wild or collisions found during the
> assignment process.)  I have always made the assumption that the instruction
> for the RFC Editor to replace them is implicit and does not need to be
> explicit.  I can make that change although I doubt it makes any difference.
> 
> <tp>  I disagree with you here.  Yes, the final allocation is for IANA to 
> make but you should ask for what you want to guide them.  Early Allocation 
> can mean implemented in ASICs and deployed in hundreds of thousands of boxes 
> in which case the cost of change is substantial compared to say a change of 
> one constant in one line in Linux.  You know, IANA do not; tell them!

I do think it's pretty common to have the document say something about
"makes permanent the early allocation of value NNN for <X>".

> 
> The I-D adds the value 'filter only' to one of the columns.  The registry
> was set up by RFC8152 which lists permitted values of which this is not one.
> This then constitutes an update to RFC8152 which the I-D does not mention.
> [JLS] I would disagree that this requires an update of RFC 8152 for two
> reasons.  First this is not a change in the COSE protocol in any manner and
> thus would violate what I consider to be the letter of the law for updates.
> Second, when this change is made RFC 8152 will have been obsoleted by a new
> RFC and thus it does not really make sense to update it.  This is an IANA
> instruction not a protocol change.
> 
> <tp> I agree that the protocol does not change but the rules set out by 
> RFC8152 for the IANA Registry do change and that IMHO is an update to 
> RFC8152, one that rfc8152bis-algs does not include, 

The registry is an entity in its own right, and there is a "Reference" field
associated with the registry that accepts multi-value input.  Updating the
registry is generally orthogonal to updating the document that created the
registry initially.

-Ben

> 
> The registry has five columns; this I-D adds a new one, Capabilities,
> another update to RFC8152.  What then happens to this column for existing
> entries in the registry?  The I-D is silent.
> [JLS] This is done by a different document.
> <tp> yes,  I can see that now
> 
> RFC8152 is Standards Track; this I-D which IMHO updates it is Informational.
> [JLS] Given that it is updating the IANA sections and not the protocol I
> would not consider that to be an issue.
> <tp> I do :-)
> 
> The IANA registry entry gives a reference of 'RFC8152'; this I-D, which
> changes the specification of the registry, needs adding to that reference.
> [JLS] This make sense and I will do it.
> 
> RFC8126 recommends that IANA Considerations be for IANA, that IANA does not
> have to search the rest of the document for the data it needs.
> Here, the relevant data appears in three other sections as well (and there
> is much in the I-D that is not relevant to IANA, it is not one of those I-D
> that is only about IANA).
> [JLS]  I do not consider that pointing to a table in the document to fall
> under the rubric of making IANA search for data.  It is a direct pointer to
> the information that is required.  Having the same table appear multiple
> times in a document is a recipe for making mistakes in terms of what the
> data is.  There is already the problem of trying to harmonize text and the
> table with out adding another version of the table.
> 
> Abstract should be plain text -
>      [I-D.ietf-cose-rfc8152bis-struct]
> does not look like plain text.
> [JLS] This is not plain text and will be repaired by the RFC editor.  Using
> the reference structure makes it clearer that this is something that the RFC
> editor is going to be required to update.  This is not something I do for
> documents which are already RFCs.
> <tp> An alternative that I see other Authors use is to specify RFC YYYY with 
> an RFC Editor note to replace YYYY when the I-D referenced becomes an RFC - 
> just a thought.
> 
> Tom Petch
> 
> I have great faith in the a
> 
> ---
> New Outlook Express and Windows Live Mail replacement - get it here:
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> 
> bility of IANA to make sense of what they are
> asked to do but do think that the more straightforward that is the better.
> And then there are those that come after, who want the RFC to say what
> happened and why without digging into the e-mail archives (as I see
> happening now and again:-)
> [JLS] The other problem that you have not highlighted is the question of
> when a bis document is created should the IANA instructions be propagated
> forward into the new document despite the fact that IANA is not going to do
> anything.  That is what is going to happen with some of these registries.
> It makes life even harder if duplicate or extraneous items are included.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> Tom Petch
> 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "IETF-Announce on behalf of The IESG"
> > <[email protected][email protected]>
> > To: <IETF-Announce>
> > Cc: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; 
> > <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 4:26 PM
> >
> >> The IESG has received a request from the CBOR Object Signing and
> > Encryption
> >> WG (cose) to consider the following document: - 'CBOR Object Signing
> > and
> >> Encryption (COSE): Hash Algorithms'
> >>    <draft-ietf-cose-hash-algs-03.txt> as Informational RFC
> >>
> >> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> > final
> >> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the 
> >> [email protected] mailing lists by 2020-05-26. Exceptionally,
> > comments may
> >> be sent to [email protected] instead. In either case, please retain the
> > beginning
> >> of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
> >>
> >> Abstract
> >>
> >>
> >>     The CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE) syntax
> >>     [I-D.ietf-cose-rfc8152bis-struct] does not define any direct
> > methods
> >>     for using hash algorithms.  There are however circumstances where
> >>     hash algorithms are used: Indirect signatures where the hash of one
> >>     or more contents are signed.  X.509 certificate or other object
> >>     identification by the use of a fingerprint.  This document 
> >> defines
> > a
> >>     set of hash algorithms that are identified by COSE Algorithm
> >>     Identifiers.
> >>
> >>
> >> The file can be obtained via
> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cose-hash-algs/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> IETF-Announce mailing list
> >> [email protected]
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
> >> =
> 
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