Thank you, Elwyn.

Your explanation of “reps of” and background was very helpful. Obviously long 
term leases could be dealt with as any other asset, but what threw me was that 
I would have expected some more legal language (e.g. executor of……legal 
representative of…etc).  

So the lease I have been looking at would have been in name of and signed by 
Robert McKittrick and purely on an ex post basis, when the solicitors for the 
lessor drew up the sale prospectus for sale in 1872, they found that the lessee 
was deceased (1869) so they listed the Tenant as Representatives of Robert 
McKittrick.  In fact son John was Occupier in 1860 (Griffith) when Robert was 
still alive, so John would have probably occupied under a private arrangement 
with his father and ran the farm (probably mainly flax growing) paid the rates. 
Interestingly, looking more closely at the terms of the subject lease, there 
was a clause against assigning, mortgaging, under leasing or otherwise 
disposing of the interest, except by will, but  that obviously did not prevent 
occupation by a son. But yes, you would expect that “Reps of” could only 
operate under a will.

Another interesting feature of the lease arrangement was the existence of a 
reversionary lease over part of the land involving a large (probably 
prohibitive) rent increase for that part of the land at the expiration of the 
main lease. The maps are only viewable on Find My Past in black and white and 
the land subject to the reversionary lease is bordered in yellow so it's not 
possible to easily identify the part involved and its significance.

Later, from the Revision Books available at nidirect, John’s son Joseph 
inherited the lease or was at least occupier. As Elwyn states, things got 
better for Lessees as by a 1901 Revision Joseph held the land in fee (entry 
stamped L.A.P.-exact expansion of acronym yet to be found). I assume LAP 
indicates that Joseph took advantage of one or other of the attractive 
government purchase assistance schemes, probably one under which the money was 
lent over a long term, going by the date. Later schemes seemed to involve an 
outright grant. Joseph eventually sold the land to a Peter Donnelly.

Happy to see any further discussion!

Peter McKittrick


> On 29 Jun 2020, at 11:06 pm, elwyn soutter <elwynsout...@googlemail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Peter,
>  
> Sorry if you feel I misinterpreted your words.  (You said: “may be to avoid 
> having to draw up a new lease until it was necessary.”)  Dodge wasn’t 
> intended in any pejorative way, simply as being expedient.
>  
>  
> Elwyn
> 
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 11:47, Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList 
> <cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com <mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>> 
> wrote:
> Just in case my email didn’t go to the mailing list, I’ll repeat my response 
> to Elwyn Souter: Elwyn, at no stage did I suggest it was a “dodge” thank you. 
> 
> Peter
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On 29 Jun 2020, at 8:16 pm, Peter McKittrick <petermck...@gmail.com 
> > <mailto:petermck...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > Elwyn, at no time did I suggest it was a “dodge” thank you.
> > 
> > Peter
> > 
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > 
> >>> On 29 Jun 2020, at 7:24 pm, elwyn soutter <elwynsout...@googlemail.com 
> >>> <mailto:elwynsout...@googlemail.com>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> Regarding “reps of” cases, it was common for there to be significant 
> >> delays in winding up of some estates. That could be a combination of slow 
> >> or ineffective executors or it could be because there were disputes or 
> >> other legal matters which delayed things.
> >>  
> >> As a random search, I went to the PRONI wills website and looked for 
> >> people who died between 1858 and 1862 but whose estates were not granted 
> >> probate until between 1890 and 1900. There are 36 such cases.  So it took 
> >> up to 32 years for probate to be granted in a fairly significant number of 
> >> cases. And until that was done the executors had control over lease 
> >> renewal etc. So any property transactions relating to those estates would 
> >> have “reps of” for many many years. (It wasn’t a dodge to avoid a new 
> >> lease, as Peter suggests. It was just that the owner was dead but the 
> >> property had not yet been passed on formally to the person who had 
> >> inherited it. So the person with temporary jurisdiction, and landlord, was 
> >> the executor(s).
> >>  
> >> Here’s a William Bradley who died in 1877. Probate was finally granted in 
> >> 1940.  Just a slight delay of 63 years. (The estate was valued at a 
> >> whopping £25).
> >>  
> >> Bradley William of Drumard county Tyrone farmer died 26 January 1877 
> >> Administration W/A Londonderry 13 September to Enoch Bradley farmer. 
> >> Effects £25. Probate: 13 September 1940.
> >>  
> >> On many of the lengthy delay cases you will find the letters “d.b.n” in 
> >> the probate abstract. DBN is short for “De bonis non” a term used by the 
> >> Probate Court when dealing with estates where the original executor(s) did 
> >> not fulfil their obligations to the deceased, perhaps because they were 
> >> overseas or even dead themselves, and no-one else took any action to 
> >> resolve things.
> >>  
> >>  
> >>  
> >> Elwyn
> >> 
> >>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 07:25, Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList 
> >>> <cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
> >>> <mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>> wrote:
> >>> Hi Rick, you asked for an example of "Representatives of [Name] being 
> >>> listed in relation to tenancies. The example I’ve seen is when the 
> >>> Altmore Estate was auctioned in 1872 and the sale prospectus listed all 
> >>> the existing lease agreements including one over an Altmore property 
> >>> i.n.o. Robert McKittrick where the Tenants Names are recorded as 
> >>> "Representatives of Robert McKittrick". This document is available on 
> >>> subscription through Find My Past Landed Estates Court Rentals1850-1885. 
> >>> By 1860 and Griffith, Robert’s son John (don’t think he was the eldest) 
> >>> is in Occupation of the property and by 1869 Robert had died, but in 1872 
> >>> the lease agreement with Reps of Robert McKittrick was still being relied 
> >>> upon.
> >>> 
> >>> Regards
> >>> 
> >>> Peter McKittrick
> >>> 
> >>> > On 28 Jun 2020, at 8:33 am, Peter McKittrick <petermck...@gmail.com 
> >>> > <mailto:petermck...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>> > 
> >>> > Rick, good topic. The only thing I’ve noticed is that the lessee is 
> >>> > sometimes described as “Representatives of.....“ May be to avoid having 
> >>> > to draw up a new lease until it was absolutely necessary say when the 
> >>> > lessor changed.
> >>> > 
> >>> > Peter
> >>> > 
> >>> > Sent from my iPhone
> >>> > 
> >>> >> On 28 Jun 2020, at 6:20 am, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList 
> >>> >> <cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
> >>> >> <mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>> wrote:
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> Hello all …I've been having difficulty finding information concerning 
> >>> >> how tenancy was passed along from generation to generation on the 
> >>> >> plantation farms. What was the legal framework for inheriting the 
> >>> >> lease on the farm that the family had been occupying … in our case for 
> >>> >> at least 150 years prior to the land acts at the end of the 19th 
> >>> >> century? Hoping somebody might be able to steer me somewhere on this 
> >>> >> issue.
> >>> >> Also, any insight on how a decision was made within a family regarding 
> >>> >> which son (or daughter) would assume responsibility for the lease?
> >>> >> Thanks, as always …
> >>> >> Rick Smoll
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>> >> From: elwyn soutter <elwynsout...@googlemail.com 
> >>> >> <mailto:elwynsout...@googlemail.com>>
> >>> >> To: James McKane <jamck...@gmail.com <mailto:jamck...@gmail.com>>
> >>> >> Cc: Rick Smoll <rsmoll...@aim.com <mailto:rsmoll...@aim.com>>; 
> >>> >> CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List <cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
> >>> >> <mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>>
> >>> >> Sent: Thu, Jun 11, 2020 8:21 pm
> >>> >> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 
> >>> >> - 1633
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> Rick, Ballyboe is from the Irish words “Baile bo”meaning “cow land.” 
> >>> >> According to Philip Robinson - “The Plantation of Ulster”,a ballyboe 
> >>> >> was “A small Irish land division which, before the 
> >>> >> plantation,represented the territory within which several families 
> >>> >> worked the land.Although the real area of the ballyboe varied greatly 
> >>> >> with the quality of theland, it was assumed by the plantation 
> >>> >> surveyors to contain 60 acres ofprofitable land in most areas of 
> >>> >> north-west Ulster. Many modern townlands haveevolved from these 
> >>> >> ballyboes.” Not all land in Ireland was requisitionedby the Crown at 
> >>> >> the time of the Plantation. At least a third remained in thehands of 
> >>> >> local Irish landlords, normally provided they agreed to be loyal tothe 
> >>> >> Crown.  An obvious example would bethe Maguires who had lands in 
> >>> >> Fermanagh. Chunks of land were declared forfeitfollowing the 1641 
> >>> >> uprising and reallocated. Details in the Down survey: 
> >>> >> http://downsurvey.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php 
> >>> >> <http://downsurvey.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php> Robinson spends some 
> >>> >> time discussing theorigins of settler names in Tyrone, and to what 
> >>> >> extent Scottish undertakers hadScots tenants, and English undertakers 
> >>> >> had English tenants. The implicationbeing that they originated in 
> >>> >> their landlords respective estates. However therewas evidently a lot 
> >>> >> of mixing. For example on p122 he says:  The evidence of Scots 
> >>> >> settling outsidetheir allocated baronies of Strabane and Mountjoy is 
> >>> >> supplemented by a statementof Lord Audley’s in 1614 when he claimed 
> >>> >> that his estate of Finagh and Rarone inOmagh barony had as many Scots 
> >>> >> as English in it. Although there is considerable degree ofcontinuity 
> >>> >> between 1630 and 1666 in the distributional pattern of 
> >>> >> Britishsettlement, and indeed in the persistence of English and 
> >>> >> Scottish localities,the actual surnames on most estates did change 
> >>> >> dramatically. This turnover ofpersonnel cannot be attributed simply to 
> >>> >> the ravages of the 1641 rebellion, forcomparable changes can be 
> >>> >> observed between 1622 and 1630. A high degree oftenant mobility is a 
> >>> >> striking characteristic of plantation settlement, despitethe 
> >>> >> continuity of settlement patterns.” He goes on to discuss colonial 
> >>> >> spread. “In1622 the percentage of Scots on any Tyrone estate was 
> >>> >> closely related towhether or not the estate was Scottish owned, and 
> >>> >> only marginally related tothe physical distance from Londonderry as 
> >>> >> the natural entry point for Scottishsettlers. However by 1630 the gap 
> >>> >> between the statistical significance of thesetwo factors had narrowed, 
> >>> >> and by 1666 it was the distance from Londonderrywhich was most 
> >>> >> significant. This supports the model of colonization outlinedabove, 
> >>> >> whereby the process of direct plantation, with subsequent 
> >>> >> internalmigration operated simultaneously with that of colonial 
> >>> >> spread. Furthermore thecontention that colonial spread became 
> >>> >> relatively more important than directplantation with time is also 
> >>> >> supported.” (This continues for pages but you willhopefully get the 
> >>> >> general drift.  Manysettlers in Tyrone and particularly the Scots 
> >>> >> arrived via Londonderry and movedacross Tyrone. Some stayed put and 
> >>> >> some moved about. After 40 years colonialspread meant that a 
> >>> >> significant percentage were no longer in the place wherethey first 
> >>> >> settled). Loughterush is in the barony of Omagh East.For me, the 
> >>> >> absence of Morrisons in that part of Tyrone in the Muster Rolls (iec 
> >>> >> 1630) strongly suggests your ancestors must have there arrived 
> >>> >> afterthat.  There’s only 1 Morison in Tyronein the Muster Rolls, a 
> >>> >> Robert Morsion in Strabane barony. Perhaps your familywere connected 
> >>> >> to him and moved south to Loughterush. So colonial spread? Your 
> >>> >> question is whether Audley brought theMorisons over? I doubt he 
> >>> >> brought them over himself because he appears to haveacquired those 
> >>> >> lands from his uncle, Lord Castlehaven who was the originalUndertaker. 
> >>> >> The family were from Petersfield in Hampshire.  Morison is not a name 
> >>> >> particularly common inthat part of England so that would make me doubt 
> >>> >> they were Castlehaven tenantsin England. But I might be wrong.   Elwyn
> >>> >> On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 01:21, James McKane <jamck...@gmail.com 
> >>> >> <mailto:jamck...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> A search of the CoTyroneIreland.com Tithe Applotment Index shows this 
> >>> >> entry
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> | MORRISON | Edward | Loughterush | Sloy Manor, Kilskerry 1826
> >>> >> |
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> Jim McKane
> >>> >> Kitchener, Ontario
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 5:02 PM Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList 
> >>> >> <cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
> >>> >> <mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>> wrote:
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> I located a copy of the 1654-1656 Civil Survey that covers the 
> >>> >> townland of Loughterush in Kilskeery Parish … this obviously does not 
> >>> >> list the tenants names, only the owner … but there is interesting 
> >>> >> information there that for me begs some questions that perhaps some of 
> >>> >> you could help me with. I have attached the top page with the header 
> >>> >> that describes the area and names the owner, and then the page that 
> >>> >> lists Laghterish (older spelling or misspelling of Loughterush) among 
> >>> >> the townlands in his possession.
> >>> >> Questions:1. Is there any reason to have confidence that Col. Audley 
> >>> >> Mervin  would have been the one to have brought the Morrisons over to 
> >>> >> Loughterush? 2. Were all of the lands of Ulster apportioned out in the 
> >>> >> time frame around 1610, or did it take a longer period of time (ie, 
> >>> >> could Mervin have been granted his land after 1630?) He was also 
> >>> >> listed among those who came to the aid of Londonderry during the siege 
> >>> >> by James II in 1690, so he was not likely an original grantee in 
> >>> >> 1610.3.The total acreage for the townlands of Lisnahanna, Loughterush, 
> >>> >> and Derryvokenan (?) is listed as 65 acres … there is obviously a lot 
> >>> >> more than 65 acres there (even Irish acres) ; the Morrison farm alone 
> >>> >> was about 40-50 acres … could that be referring to only the amount of 
> >>> >> acreage under cultivation?
> >>> >> Other items of interest: … I now know what a Balliboe is.
> >>> >> … Based on the note in the left column of the first page, Audley was 
> >>> >> apparently among those protestant royalists who were penalized by 
> >>> >> Cromwell with the settlement act of 1652.
> >>> >> 
> >>> >>  Rick Smoll 
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>> >> From: elwyn soutter <elwynsout...@googlemail.com 
> >>> >> <mailto:elwynsout...@googlemail.com>>
> >>> >> To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List <cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
> >>> >> <mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>>
> >>> >> Cc: rsmoll999 <rsmoll...@aim.com <mailto:rsmoll...@aim.com>>
> >>> >> Sent: Thu, May 21, 2020 9:27 pm
> >>> >> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 
> >>> >> - 1633
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> Rick, The surname, the general location and thefamily denomination all 
> >>> >> point to them being settlers who probably arrived inIreland in the 
> >>> >> 1600s. MacLysaght’s surnames of Ireland describesMorrison as  “an 
> >>> >> English name numerous inUlster.” The location ie Tyrone, is a county 
> >>> >> heavily settled by Scots &English in that period, and the family 
> >>> >> denomination (Methodist in 1901) alsopoints to them being incomers. 
> >>> >> (They would almost certainly have been Church ofIreland – ie Anglican- 
> >>> >> in earlier times, prior to Methodism’s arrival inIreland).  So in 
> >>> >> effect you have 3pointers to them being of settler origins. The Muster 
> >>> >> Rolls c 1630 show a number ofMorrisons in Ireland, and one in Tyrone, 
> >>> >> but none in the Barony of Omagh East(which includes Loughterush) so 
> >>> >> that points to a post 1630 arrival in theLoughterush area, if not in 
> >>> >> Ireland. It’s very rare to find any documentationfor the 1600s, unless 
> >>> >> you were an Undertaker or major land owner, or had landforfeit after 
> >>> >> the 1641 rebellion.  Theearliest likely records might be in the 
> >>> >> Registry of Deeds which start around1709. If the family registered a 
> >>> >> lease or other significant document, thatsometimes gives you a date. 
> >>> >> Failing that, church records may help. KilskeeryChurch of Ireland 
> >>> >> records start in 1767 so you might find them there. For somepeople the 
> >>> >> tithe applotment records in the late 1820s/early 1830s are often 
> >>> >> theearliest records to be found.   I searched the PRONI e-catalogue 
> >>> >> but see nomention there of Morrison in Loughterush other than in the 
> >>> >> tithes in 1826.There were no comprehensive records of when people 
> >>> >> first acquired land. Formost 17th century settlers, the first 150 
> >>> >> years or so of their timein Ireland are lost in the mists of time. 
> >>> >> Elwyn
> >>> >> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 03:06, rsmoll999 via CoTyroneList 
> >>> >> <cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
> >>> >> <mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>> wrote:
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> Peter  ... thanks for responding  ... the links you sent are not 
> >>> >> working for me. I'll do some more hunting for those sites.Sent from my 
> >>> >> Sprint Samsung Galaxy S9.
> >>> >> -------- Original message --------From: Peter McKittrick via 
> >>> >> CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
> >>> >> <mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>> Date: 5/21/20  8:43 PM  
> >>> >> (GMT-06:00) To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" 
> >>> >> <cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
> >>> >> <mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>> Cc: Peter McKittrick 
> >>> >> <petermck...@gmail.com <mailto:petermck...@gmail.com>> Subject: 
> >>> >> [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 - 1633 A 
> >>> >> past Genealogical Society of Victoria (Australia) handout indicates 
> >>> >> that Morrison appears in Scottish names in Tyrone, 1610-1633 based on 
> >>> >> muster rolls and estate maps.Sources:             Brian Orr, 
> >>> >> Plantation of Ireland and the Ulster Scots published on 
> >>> >> http://www.irishclans.com/ <http://www.irishclans.com/> 
> >>> >> <http://www.irishclans.com/ <http://www.irishclans.com/>>              
> >>> >>         Gwen Rawlings-Barry, The Ulster Plantation (1605-1697) 
> >>> >> published on http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/ 
> >>> >> <http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/> 
> >>> >> <http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/ 
> >>> >> <http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/>> (website not found).Peter 
> >>> >> McKittrick> On 22 May 2020, at 10:23 am, Gordon Wilkinson via 
> >>> >> CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
> >>> >> <mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>> wrote:> > Rick, My guess is 
> >>> >> that they could have been part of the plantation of Ulster in the 
> >>> >> 17thC. I suspect(based on my surname) that my ancestors may have been 
> >>> >> part of that event too but have not been able to find any records of 
> >>> >> who arrived from where and when. Any help (thanks Len S. for your 
> >>> >> earlier help) would be appreciated. Gordon> > On 22/05/2020 3:14 am, 
> >>> >> Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList wrote:>> My Morrison ancestors occupied a 
> >>> >> farm in the Loughterush townland (Kilskeery Parish) from at least the 
> >>> >> mid 1700s until 1970 when the last Morrison on the farm passed away 
> >>> >> (he was a bachelor), and the farm was sold at public auction. The 
> >>> >> earliest ancestor I have found records for was Edward Morrison, and 
> >>> >> the earliest reference to Loughterush was with the birth of a daughter 
> >>> >> of his in 1781.>> My question is: Is there a way to find out when the 
> >>> >> Morrisons first came to occupy the farm in Loughterush?>> Thank you 
> >>> >> for any help on this.>> >>   Rick Smoll>> 
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> >>> >> > -- > _________________________________> Nereda & Gordon Wilkinson, 
> >>> >> Hyde Park, South Australia.> Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon 
> >>> >> <http://www.ozemail.com.au/%7Eneredon>        Skype id: neredon> 
> >>> >> Emails: gordon.wilkin...@ozemail.com.au 
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