Here's a conversation Jacob and I had about how to measure coworking,
cross posted for the benefit of others:
(You can join this conversation by adding [email protected]
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*[email protected]* Daily Chat Activity
for Tuesday, March 1, 2011 (3/1/11) ([email protected]):
12:03 jsayles: Jonathan, are you there this AM?
12:03 jonathan: yessah
12:04 jsayles: Are we annoying you with this thread on the google group?
12:04 jonathan: No, not at all
12:04 jsayles: does it make sense what I was getting at?
12:04 jonathan: I havent had time to really dig into it.. I saw that
you said something to the effect of "dont standardize, you'll kill it"
12:05 jsayles: yeah actuallyâEUR¦ that is a pretty good paraphrase
12:05 jsayles: it's all about scopeâEUR¦. anything that is going to be
central to such a wide audience must also be limited in scope
12:06 jsayles: jeannine said it really well too
12:07 jonathan: Just read the thread
12:07 jonathan: I agree
12:07 jonathan: Did you see the screenshot of the "grid display" for a
city's coworking spaces?
12:07 jsayles: not yetâEUR¦ my inbox is rather overflowing since it's
monday
12:08 jsayles: I put my email down on the weekends
12:08 jsayles: took a special exception to respond to yoru email yesterday
12:12 jonathan: I think if you see the grid you'll get what i'm getting
atâEUR¦ when we start comparing facilities, what do we compare them on?
12:12 jsayles: Yes, I see that
12:12 jonathan: Maybe tag listsâEUR¦? I was hoping to do membership
levels, but if thats not what the communtiy wants, that makes sense
12:12 jsayles: I think it's just trying to do too much
12:12 jonathan: maybe drop-in rate at least?
12:12 jonathan: Check out the fields list at
12:12 jonathan: sec
12:13 jsayles: I don't think that's necessary
12:13 jsayles: Especially for this first round where we are trying to
get adoption, the main thing it needs to do is say "Office Nomads exists
in Seattle at this spot on the map"
12:14 jsayles: then let my website talk about what Office Nomads is all
about
12:14 jonathan: I'd like more detail than that
12:14 jonathan: I'd like to see ways to compare or see facilities in
context
12:14 jsayles: yes, but at the expense of being a solution many people
opt out of?
12:15 jonathan: I dont think that needs to be the case
12:16 jsayles: I don't know how better to explain myself via email or
chatting
12:16 jonathan: Or, if we're focusing on personality/culture, then how
does that data look? how can that be 'standardized'
12:16 jonathan: Agree, its a fine line
12:17 jonathan: but that doesnt mean it should be ignored or disqualified
12:17 jsayles: In short it can't. The real question is how can software
be useful without standardization
12:17 jonathan: mmmm disagree
12:17 jsayles: oh this is a much bigger conversation then
12:17 jonathan: I dont think we know enough, or at least I don't, at
this point to say "it cant"
12:17 jonathan: Check out this list of fields that was passed around
the list a few months ago:
https://spreadsheets4.google.com/ccc?authkey=CPaA9bgH&hl=en&key=thoPmEDgk3GfVSSm9alU2gg&hl=en&authkey=CPaA9bgH#gid=0
12:18 jonathan: There are some metrics, like square footage, number of
members which would be verrry interesting to collect
12:18 jsayles: Oh don't get me wrong, I love numbers
12:19 jsayles: I'd strongly advise against it
12:19 jsayles: against this whole way of coming at the problem
12:20 jonathan: Hmm, i guess i'm a little confused thenâEUR¦
12:20 jsayles: It seems you are getting lost in all the things the
software could do if everyone just conformedâEUR¦.
12:20 jonathan: One of the big shortfalls of the wiki is that the data
arent structured, so I'm hoping to provide more structure.. as this
field emerges, standardization will start to happen, no?
12:21 jsayles: yesâEUR¦ in part
12:21 jonathan: I'm saying that there are certain things that are
common, like "Free Parking Available" - I'd like to define those things
12:21 jsayles: a few points to considerâEUR¦ are we going to figure out
what the standard is going to be or develop a solution that allows it to
emerge organically?
12:22 jsayles: that reduced spaces down to amenity pointsâEUR¦.
12:22 jonathan: If that's all the data that are provided, then yes, but
we have an opportunity to provide other information
12:22 jsayles: it's really unnecessaryâEUR¦.
12:22 jonathan: like reviews, testimonials, etc
12:23 jsayles: I can see that working
12:23 jonathan: i may agree with you there, im not clear on the
necessity of ameneties lists
12:23 jsayles: OK, let's back up
12:24 jonathan: I think it might be helpful to look at it from use
cases tooâEUR¦ Lets say I'm in a given city for a day, I'd like to know
where are the spaces, who accepts drop-ins, who has parking, what are
their hours, etc
12:24 jonathan: Do the focus on writers, developers, etc (culture)
12:24 jsayles: I disagree
12:24 jonathan: You dont think using use cases / user stories is a good
way to determine what the site should do?
12:24 jsayles: That is the way every other listing site comes at the
problem and it's a "problem" that doesn't need to be solved
12:25 jsayles: no, I don't think that use case is valid
12:25 jonathan: okay
12:25 jsayles: People want to know where the coworking spaces are
12:25 jsayles: The fact that Office Nomads associates with "coworking"
and that we are at this given address and have this website is all that
is needed for the majority of real life use cases
12:26 jonathan: hmmmmm
12:26 jsayles: I see a lot of use cases thrown around for scenarios
that just don't happen in real life
12:26 jsayles: at least not that often
12:26 jonathan: Here's an exampleâEUR¦ Sector67, a hackerspace in
Madison, is listed as coworking but if i went there expecting a Class A
office, I'd be sorely disappointed
12:27 jsayles: and you would figure it out on your own really quicklyâEUR¦
12:27 jsayles: it's not worth adjusting the structure of the system to
"solve" that problemâEUR¦
12:28 jonathan: In the Sector67 case, its a single field with two
options, "Coworking / Hackerspace" - seems like an easy solution
12:28 jsayles: The real key isn't what software CAN doâEUR¦ we could
get into those arguments all day long
12:28 jonathan: Agree
12:28 jonathan: I may be trying to implement more than needed
12:29 jsayles: It is only that easy if you focus on solving that one
guys disappointment and it comes at a bigger cost
12:29 jonathan: I dont think there's much cost associated with having
spaces self-identify as coworking vs hackerspaceâEUR¦ i think that's an
important distinction
12:29 jsayles: Being in the registry means the space associates
themselves with coworking
12:29 jsayles: if it's a nursing home, they should be allowed to
participate
12:30 jsayles: extreme example, I apologize if I lost you on that one
12:30 jonathan: No, i get it
12:30 jsayles: and I know you don't think there is much costâEUR¦
you've expressed that again and again
12:30 jonathan: But if we dont qualify the existence of an entry, then
the entry itself should have some qualifying informaiton in it
12:30 jsayles: and I strongly disagreeâEUR¦ I'd love to show you the
cost I'm talking about but seem to be failing
12:30 jonathan: In my example, i dont think there is much cost, no. I
am talking about ticking a box.
12:31 jsayles: it's not how easy it is to check a boxâEUR¦ that has
nothing to do with it
12:31 jonathan: You lost me thenâEUR¦ what does it have to do with?
12:31 jsayles: it's the whole phylosophy of what the role of a central
list should be
12:32 jonathan: i'm with you...
12:32 jsayles: I believe it should ONLY be a way to put a stake in the
ground and be associated
12:33 jonathan: Hmmmm
12:33 jsayles: defining strucuture implies conforming to standards and
then it goes too far
12:33 jsayles: yes it makes it "easy" but it violates the central point
of being neutral and all-inclusive
12:33 jonathan: Well we ARE conforming to standards
12:33 jonathan: They all have a name
12:33 jonathan: They all have a location
12:33 jsayles: yes
12:33 jonathan: They all have a web site
12:34 jsayles: yup
12:34 jonathan: Most have an email address
12:34 jsayles: it's a fine lineâEUR¦ yup
12:34 jonathan: Most have a drop-in rate
12:34 jsayles: hmmm...
12:34 jsayles: no
12:34 jonathan: Yeah, so right now you and i are working on where that
line is
12:34 jsayles: exactly
12:34 jonathan: I agree that it shouldnt be over-structured, but I
think we should provide as much structure is as comfortable
12:35 jonathan: Currently there's a list of tags for
culture/personality which can be added to
12:35 jonathan: And pictures
12:35 jsayles: that's cool
12:35 jonathan: And "comments' which are pretty general
12:35 jonathan: Something like "How i use this space" would be interesting
12:36 jsayles: down the road there are many things that would be
interesting
12:36 jsayles: but we can't get there if we can't provide a solution
that everyone is comfortable adopting
12:36 jonathan: I'm also coming at this from the perspective of
collecting metrics that can be used to advance the state of the art in
this emerging fieldâEUR¦ for example, to answer questions that can be
answered with metricsâEUR¦ "What is the average size of a space?" "What
is the average age?" etc
12:37 jonathan: people can always leave fields empty
12:37 jsayles: that implies that an empty field has no cost
12:37 jsayles: that's the kind of engineering that makes cell phones
with extra buttons that no one uses
12:38 jonathan: I think you're collapsing "some people" with "no one"
12:38 jsayles: (I like to think of all the bad cell phone designsâEUR¦
there really are some ridiculous ones"
12:39 jonathan: Its good we're having this conversation, because it'll
save me a lot of work if we choose not to implement some of this stuff :)
12:39 jsayles: :)
12:39 jonathan: let me get an example
12:39 jsayles: Just so you know, I am a HUGE metrics guy and I am eager
to get to a point where we can start gathering more data
12:40 jsayles: but it's a much trickier problem then adding some fields
12:40 jsayles: would love to get into that but let's finish up this
firstâEUR¦ mostly just didn't want you thinking I don't love data
12:42 jonathan: This entry was created yesterday:
http://coworkingregistry.org/facility/locus-workspace
12:43 jonathan: The "Culture" and "Pictures" section support what
you're talking about, i think
12:44 jonathan: My concern about data is that we need to have a fairly
"complete" (whatever that means) schema in place before we invite people
to be stewards of their entriesâEUR¦ Jessica H has been helping me
associate entries with email adresses so people can take ownership of
their entries, but we dont want to invite everyone until we have the
fields more or less hashed out, because we dont want to have to
re-invite in 6 weeks or whatever
12:45 jsayles: I understand that
12:46 jsayles: Name/Location/Contact are the most importantâEUR¦ Must
have thoseâEUR¦.
12:46 jsayles: Did you get the part in my thread where I talked about
studying why the current wiki is so effective?
12:47 jonathan: Nom, missed that
12:47 jsayles: People love to talk about how it doesn't do this, or it
can't do that...
12:47 jsayles: but it's still been the most effective solution anyone
can come up with
12:48 jonathan: I might contend (might!) that the reason that its the
best anyone can come up with is that we haven't taken a hard look at the
appropriate constraints
12:48 jsayles: I think that is over simplifying it
12:49 jsayles: great discussion by the wayâEUR¦.
12:49 jonathan: Sounds good
12:50 jonathan: I might crosspost it to the list for the benefit of
others if that's ok
12:53 jsayles: Yeah, I'm very interested in how you would describe this
conversation. :)
12:54 jsayles: That will show me what points I'm making are getting
through and which ones haven't
12:54 jonathan: I think I'm getting youâEUR¦ i think where we disagree
is that you're saying that this problem is either unsolvable or shouldnt
be solved, and i'm saying that we need to look at it in more detail.
1:01 jsayles: oh interestingâEUR¦ actually I'd say where we disagree is
that where I see a problem that needs to be looked at in more detail, I
see you suggesting it can be solved with data points
1:04 jonathan: Yeah, I'm suggesting solutions :)
1:04 jsayles: and by "unsolvable" I really mean "i'ts not that simple"
1:06 jonathan: One of the things about having an API and doing data
exchange is having structureâEUR¦ I guess thats why i've been listening
to this conversation from a place of structured data, because it seems
like your original vision was to have a highly structured system for
exchanging/displaying data about Coworking in general (Open Coworking
Library)âEUR¦ something that the wiki (unstructured) isn't satisfying
1:07 jonathan: So, I hear ya.. it will be interesting to flesh this out
more in the future
1:07 jsayles: Yeah, I hear you too. I'm a software guy too and it's
been an interesting ride for me to wrap my head around the politics of
such a wide and diverse community
1:08 jsayles: I'll talk you ear off when we get a few beers in our
hands. :)
1:08 jonathan: Looking forward to it
Is this kind of conversational crosspost useful, or does it come off to
the list like noise?
You can join the conversation by adding [email protected] to
your Gmail contacts list (works with Gmail Chat only, not Google Apps Chat).
--
*Jonathan Yankovich*
Community Advocate / Project Manager, Madison Coworking
[email protected]
608 513 2012
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