Thanks, Ramon. All makes sense to me and very reasonable. And a good reminder of the value of shorter posts, which I often need. :)
On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 7:10 PM, Ramon Suarez <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks a lot for your lengthy academic response Will ;) > > My comments are not about this group in particular, but about the original > request or at least what I understood: how to create a new online group > that would bring all the good things missing in OP's lonely apartment > working life. > > I love to discuss about many things but I prefer to choose conversations > and who I discuss with: my time and energy are limited. Most groups I've > participated in died because there was very little signal and a lot of > noise. To get the current list we use at Betacowork > <http://www.betacowork.com> working in a meaningful way for all > participants has not been easy and there are still quirks every once in a > while, but it serves a purpose: it is meant to make it easy to help each > other. > > But we do not limit ourselves to this, we do a hell of a lot of events and > introductions to make the conversations happen face to face, where there's > much more information being transmited, and there's also a greater chance > for serendipity. > > For an online discussion forum where people can talk about whatever they > want most of us already use Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. And they are > the proof that online communities do not suffice. There are a great > complement, but not the core. > > I have no clue about the true nature of this group but 4 years ago when I > started coming around here there were so much noise and repeated questions > that I got away for at least a couple years. If there's no purpose in an > online forum, there's no interest to participate and the cost to be able to > help becomes to high to really engage. > > Ramon > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Will Bennis, Locus Workspace < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Ramon, All: >> >> I'm changing the subject of this thread since it's moved away from JC's >> original search for virtual coworkers to two topics I think should have >> more general interest to this group. >> >> Ramon: I appreciate your candid response and your contribution in general >> to the group and to the coworking community. That said, there was a lot you >> wrote with absolutes that I don't think are absolutes at all (and some that >> I think are just wrong). Some of the statements are central to what this >> group is and to how we understand the value of coworking in the lives of >> independent workers, so it brought out a strong reaction in me. >> >> I learn mostly by conversation, so hopefully this will open up a >> conversation, and I'll learn a thing or two. I'd love to get other's >> thoughts on this. >> >> *(1) Regarding the idea that this group is not for "coworkers" (for >> people who *do coworking* in addition to people who run coworking spaces):* >> This is the first time I've heard this suggestion. My sense is that was >> not the intention of the people who formed this group and it's not in the >> group description. It is the de facto use of this group right now, but IMO >> coworkers themselves are and should feel welcome to participate in >> discussions in this group. And there was a time in the early stages of this >> group when people looking for a coworking space and for people to cowork >> with were nearly as active as people running coworking spaces (though it >> was a long time ago). Anyone in the role of a group admin who could comment >> on this? If the group is not for coworkers, then shouldn't we change the >> group description and the openness of the group, so people like JC don't >> come here looking for connections to other potential coworkers that they >> won't find? >> >> *(2) Regarding the idea that participation by coworkers would only add >> noise to this group: *Maybe you're right. I'm skeptical. Some of the >> most insightful posts (useful to me as a space owner/manager) have been >> from the perspective of members (or past members or people who don't want >> to be members) of coworking spaces who don't bring the rose-colored glasses >> about the coworking panacea that so many of us are bound to bring. Our >> community--the community of space operators--like all communities, is >> extremely biased in ways that are hard to escape once you're inside the >> community. I think we'd all benefit from more input from people with >> perspectives on coworking that don't share our particular incentives and >> biased access to information. >> >> Here are *some* of the many ways the information that gets propogated in >> this discussion list is systematically biased (almost all of it towards >> giving us a more positive sense of the relative merits of coworking than >> warranted): >> >> - We're biased by the sample of coworking space "users" we hear from: as >> with other "therapies", coworking "therapists" get overwhelmingly more >> feedback from the people their "treatment" helped than from those who it >> didn't help (who for the most part just leave the scene); >> - We're biased by the sample of feedback those members choose to give us >> (they're overwhelmingly more likely to tell us about what they liked about >> our space than what they didn't like, a reality of social relationships >> more generally); >> - We're biased by the media reports (we're overwhelmingly more likely to >> hear stories about the positive aspects of the coworking trend and of the >> spaces that succeed than the negative aspects and the spaces that fail, >> neither of which make good business news and neither of which find space >> owners clamboring to talk to the media about; >> - We're biased by our own personal subjective relationship to coworking >> (we wouldn't have decided to open a space if we didn't love the idea and >> see value in it); >> - We're biased by our financial & business incentives to publicly >> portray coworking and our own coworking space as purely awesome; >> - We're biased by our emotional relationship to the business (we have >> spent a lot of money and time and heart on this thing, and it's hard not to >> look--unconsciously, without intention--more for the positives that promote >> the idea that coworking is great than the alternatives). >> - We're biased by the cumulative effect of all of the above once we take >> this to a group setting: When all of us get together posting about >> coworking, that cumulative individual bias becomes enormous. We're >> surrounded by examples and voices of support and evidence and reinforcement >> giving us the sense that our bias is objective and has been empirically >> validated. >> >> Those kinds of bias are inherent to all groups, and one of the best ways >> to (partially) escape that bias is to welcome voices from other >> perspectives who nonetheless are involved in similar or related domains. >> >> *(3) Regarding whether there are groups for coworkers and your response >> that there's no use for such groups (or they would exist already): *Maybe >> you're right. My sense was that this was the group, but that it's so >> dominated by space owners & managers and their *ongoing* needs that the >> *transient* needs of coworkers just don't make it worth spending time here, >> and that both groups have lost potential value because of that. >> >> Let me give an example: I have an academic background in an esoteric >> field (cognitive anthropology). There are a couple thousand of us. There >> are hundreds of thousands of cognitive scientists more generally, but the >> bigger group is dominated by psychologists and neuroscientists and >> linguists and computer scientists who don't share some of the basic >> concerns with systems of meaning (the contents of thought rather than the >> processes) that anthropologists tend to value. We'd love to contribute to >> the overall discussion and the direction cognitive science takes, and we >> like to think our perspective adds important value. There aren't enough of >> us to have a thriving google group on our own. But we don't get much value >> out of participating in the bigger group, because at this point our world >> views are too incompatible with the world view of the dominant >> participants. If we post to that group about the ideas that interest us, we >> would get responses much like the one J.C. got in his recent post here, >> basically: "What you're looking for doesn't have value. You should be doing >> what we're doing." The anthropologists are basically dismissed and so stop >> participating in that larger group, and neither group gets the valuable >> perspective of the other group that would help both sides be better >> scientists. >> >> I think your attitude about the level of interest of coworkers and what >> we could learn from them is parallel. Those wanting to actively contribute >> to discussing coworking may be there in large enough numbers to contribute >> to this group even if they're not out there in large enough numbers to >> create their own thriving group. And in my opinion we'd all benefit greatly >> from that input. Not getting it skews our sense of the reality of coworking >> in ways that can't benefit our community or our business decisions. >> >> *(4) Regarding the idea that virtual coworking doesn't work and that >> coworking is THE solution for anyone who thinks they're looking for virtual >> coworking (that's the claim, right?)*: Clearly not everyone can join or >> wants to join a coworking space. Some people can't afford it. Some people >> live in a place too remote from a good coworking space and don't have the >> resources or inclination to start one themselves. Some people have an >> awesome home office with resources they don't want to give up and where >> they're for-the-most-part happy working. Some people are students and live >> on a campus where they have special resources or class commitments that >> don't make using a coworking space feasible. Some have kids (or other >> people or pets or machines) they need to take care of in the next room. >> Some have to go into their organization's office and work from there, even >> though their particular work is very autonomous and could support virtual >> coworking. Etc. >> >> It sounds as though you're saying none of those people could benefit from >> having a google hangout with five people all sitting at their computers >> working with the video screen open and the option to talk to one another >> when they feel like it (i.e., virtual coworking). I know for a fact that >> some people can and have benefited from that, because I've seen it in >> action more than once. I agree: It's not the ideal. We're all sometimes in >> situations where our ideal work environment isn't possible (I think most >> members of coworking spaces would acknowledge it's not their ideal work >> environment; it's just nominally ideal given their particular work >> reality). Is virtual coworking better than sitting alone at their desk >> without being able to look up and have that video/voice connection when >> needed? For everyone, of course not. For a lot of people it would be an >> annoying distraction. For some? I'd be astounded if some people don't >> sometimes benefit from that environment. Give JC the credit for knowing >> what he's looking for and for having some reason for looking for it. >> Telling him he's looking for the wrong thing and should do what we're doing >> instead comes off as patronising. Given that it's coming from coworking >> space owners who make their livings--at least in part--"selling" coworking, >> it also comes off as perhaps inauthentic and self-serving (though of course >> I don't think that was the motivation). >> >> Respectfully, >> >> Will >> >> On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at 10:13:39 AM UTC+1, Ramon Suarez wrote: >>> >>> Will, that would only add noise. If the coworkers wanted a discussion >>> group, wouldn't they have created it already and wouldn't it be thriving? >>> It is simple and free to start a discussion group. What is stopping them? >>> >>> There's no purpose in such a group. The link is too weak and >>> purposeless. It is already hard to have an online group that runs with much >>> stronger ties and interests. >>> >>> There are a load of social networks, chats, and groups for freelancers, >>> entrepreneurs and every profession and interest, still none of them add >>> what JC is asking for. What he asks for are exactly the things why me and >>> thousands of others joined coworking spaces. No online network is going to >>> provide what physical presence of others does. Creating and online >>> distraction is not the solution to lack of productivity, concentration and >>> loneliness. Attending local meetups is a good way to at least see some >>> faces and not isolate yourself completely, but it does nothing or little to >>> improve the previous. >>> >>> I speak from my own experience and that of many others: the solution is >>> joining a coworking space or a shared office and interact with people face >>> to face. :) >>> >>> Ramon Suarez >>> Serendipity Accelerator, Betacowork >>> Author: http://coworkinghandbook.com >>> email & hangouts: [email protected] >>> Phone: +3227376769 >>> GSM: +32497556284 >>> Twitter:http://twitter.com/ramonsuarez >>> Skype: ramonsuarez >>> Try coworking: http://betacowork.com >>> >>> <http://betacowork.com/free-coworking-tryout/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=468x60_banner&utm_content=girl-home&utm_campaign=ramon-signature> >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Will Bennis, Locus Workspace < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> J.C.'s post does point to what I take to be the greatest loss for this >>>> discussion group: that it is almost devoid of participation from people who >>>> cowork and don't also have some deeper connection to the movement. But I >>>> suppose that's the nature of the beast? Is there *ongoing* value in a >>>> coworking discussion group for *members* of coworking spaces? >>>> >>>> My sense is we'd all benefit from getting greater input/perspective >>>> from that side of the coworking world (the member side), though I'm not >>>> sure that side would benefit from taking the time to give it. >>>> >>>> I do wonder if there's some tweak we could do as a community here that >>>> would make this list more diverse in terms of who can get benefit from >>>> being on here so that coworkers too could participate and add their >>>> perspective and also feel as though they're getting value from doing so? >>>> >>>> On Monday, January 19, 2015 at 2:22:25 PM UTC+1, Will Bennis, Locus >>>> Workspace wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi J.C.: >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure there are people out there who share your need and would want >>>>> to cowork with you over the Internet and for whom a physical coworking >>>>> space isn't the solution. Unfortunately, I don't think this list is the >>>>> best place to find those people. As you might have gathered from the >>>>> replies, most of the people active on this list are coworking space >>>>> proprietors or are otherwise invested in the coworking space industry or >>>>> the coworking movement. That's not by design. In my opinion it's just by >>>>> virtue of what has kept a consistent group actively interested in >>>>> discussing *coworking*. >>>>> >>>>> Anyone know of a good non-affiliated discussion list where >>>>> "coworkers", or people seeking to be coworkers, congregate? My >>>>> guess--J.C.--is that you'd be better posting this question on some group >>>>> where digital nomads, location-independent professionals, freelancers, >>>>> home >>>>> workers, teleworkers, etc., congregate. But I don't know where that is (or >>>>> if those groups suffer from the same trait of hosting primarily people who >>>>> build their careers around that topic, rather than the participants in >>>>> those activities themselves). >>>>> >>>>> I'd love to hear others' suggestions for where to find this niche. Or >>>>> J.C., if you find a place to post this inquiry that brings you success, >>>>> I'd >>>>> love to hear where you found it. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Will >>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, Jan 16, 2015 at 6:08 PM, J.C. Amaya <[email protected]>, >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hey all! My name is JC and I do phone sales out of my apartment but >>>>>>>> am finding it kind of difficult to stay focused. I'm usually pretty >>>>>>>> disciplined in the office but at home by myself it's way too easy to >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>> distracted and goof around, especially since my job is commission only >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> there's no one to get on my case when I slack off. What I'd like to do >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> get together with a few other professionals and create a regular google >>>>>>>> hang out for people who work from home but want to sort of recreate the >>>>>>>> office environment. A little banter, a little motivation and support. >>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>> would probably work best with others who cold call from home but I'm >>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>> to working with anyone who's interested. If anyone is interested in >>>>>>>> trying >>>>>>>> it out, shoot me an email. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >> Visit this forum on the web at http://discuss.coworking.com >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups "Coworking" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/coworking/CgTm15gTY-Y/unsubscribe. >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > Visit this forum on the web at http://discuss.coworking.com > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Coworking" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/coworking/CgTm15gTY-Y/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Will Bennis *Like Locus-Krakovska <https://www.facebook.com/locusworkspace> on FacebookLike Locus-Slezska <https://www.facebook.com/LocusSlezska> on Facebook* *Follow Locus Workspace <http://twitter.com/locusworkspace> on Twitter* http://www.locusworkspace.cz [email protected] Mob: +420 732 501 105 -- Visit this forum on the web at http://discuss.coworking.com --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Coworking" group. 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