I totally agree with Vickram's sentiment. Increasing power is no solution at all. This would only mean fewer community radio stations and relative monopoly --a philosophical outlook that I dont think anybody in CR movement would agree to.
An active involvement in spectrum politics is something that we need to push for. It may be prudent for Nomad or any other group to do a complete analysis of spectrum for Sarang radio and then pinpoint the problem area to the WPC/government. However,it costs money. hemant On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 12:32 +0530, [email protected] wrote: > Send cr-india mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/cr-india > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cr-india digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: On Frequency (Vickram Crishna) > 2. Re: On Frequency (mahesh acharya) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 23:18:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: Vickram Crishna <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [cr-india] On Frequency > To: CR India <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > [1. Spurious and harmonic interference from other RF systems, may not > necessarily radio stations.] > > > Exactly. However, with harmonic interference from other sources, it seems a > little hard to understand how the problem vanishes at all other frequencies > in the FM band. It is possible someone is deliberately creating mischief, > isn't it? AIR Rainbow in Mumbai uses nearly the same frequency, and there is > no issue of crackle or noise, despite a number of other stations pumping out > kWs of RF in the same region. > > In a perfect world, the station could sue the government for not ensuring > that the license granted to it is operational functionally. Why pay that > frequency allocation charge, if the government can't reserve the frequency? > However, this should not be taken as a recommendation for legal action. > Again, perhaps an RTI would clear the air: possible questions "What steps has > the government taken to ensure that the frequency 107.8MHz is available for > Radio Sarang exclusively as per license #nnn issued on dd-mm-yyyy" and "What > steps have been taken to stop spurious/unlicensed RF transmissions > interfering with broadcast signals of Radio Sarang". > > Someone also suggested that the CR license is permitted up to 250W - where is > this provision mentioned? In fact, I have only read that the CR station may > be permitted @100W in exceptional circumstances. > Vickram > http://communicall.wordpress.com > http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Hemant <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, 4 September, 2009 9:48:10 > Subject: Re: [cr-india] On Frequency > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 19:24:00 -0700 (PDT) > From: Vickram Crishna <[email protected]> > > > > Hello All, > > Since Nomad engineers have installed and re-analysed the problem faced > by Dr Rego, I would like to share following observations: > > 1. The transmitter is generating exactly 50 watts of power as stipulated > by the Government. > > 2. The antenna is giving the stipulated gain (approx 2.8 dBi) while coax > length is less than 10 meters. > > 3. The SWR is less than 1.1 > > 4. System is not generating any noise or spurious. Some crackling sound > is being picked up in air. > > 5. Signals are reaching as long as 15 to 20 km if you ignore the noise > > 5. All problems are sorted out if we operate anywhere else in the > frequency band > > Possible reasons: > > 1. Spurious and harmonic interference from other RF systems, may not > necessarily radio stations. > > 2. Very high levels of moisture due to monsoon season. > > Possible solutions: > > 1. Change the Frequency to 90.4 as given to many other community radio > stations. > > 2. As it has been discussed before CRF should request WPC to avoid > alloting 107.8 to low powered radio stations. > > Hope this helps. > > in solidarity > > Hemant > > > > Subject: Re: [cr-india] on frequency > To: CR India <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dr Rego > > There are two possible problems. One is that your own transmitter is not > generating sufficient EIRP, which could be due to an antenna mismatch. > The second, and more likely, is that other stations nearby are > generating spurious signals at your allotted frequency band. As you > report, they 'invade' your space. > > According to you, 'checking' for the cause only got you the answer > 'frequency' - who gave you this answer? If it is anyone from the > Ministry (telecom or broadcasting)/WPC, then perhaps you need to file an > RTI asking them for copies of orders given to the other stations to > repair their setup. > > It would also be useful to track the actual status of transmission > during your broadcast timings, and also at other times, in order to > establish whether your bandwidth is being cluttered by spurious signals > from other nearby stations. Finally, is there a chance that you are > located too close to the transmission towers of any other stations? The > SACFA clearance was supposed to take care of this aspect, of course. > > Vickram > http://communicall.wordpress.com > http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dr Richie Rego SJ <[email protected]> > To: CR Forum <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, 2 September, 2009 22:57:35 > Subject: [cr-india] on frequency > > > > Hi everyone! > > I have a problem. Would like to know how you would deal with this - we > have 107.8 MHz frequency assigned to us. But low power radio sets and > mobiles cannot receive our radio signals even in nearby areas - car > stereo do. That means, local communities are deprived of our > transmission. People keep pleading us "increase signals" - they have > listened to our station sometime; they have read in newspapers. hence > their demand. We are unable because of the frequency. We checked why > this happens. The answer is 'frequency'.. In addition - noise! > > Besides, private FMs and AIR keep invading our frequency gloriously. All > Our efforts and people's desire doesn't seem to be bearing fruit. > > How would be address this problem? > I will try uploading an audio piece recorded from our own transmitter in > our own campus & in the vicinity of the College. You can feel the noise > and difference. > > If I succeed, the piece should be available through my blog > www.richardrego.wordpress.com for you to get a taste. > TC > > ==================================== > Rev Dr Richard Rego SJ > Director, SARANG SAC 107.8FM Community Radio > Head & Asst Prof., MCMS > Dept of Mass Communication > St Aloysius College; P.B. 720 > Mangalore - 575003. > www.richardrego.wordpress.com > www.staloysiuscollege.wordpress.com > 0824-2449706. > +919448546425. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/cr-india/attachments/20090902/4c2c2f98/attachment-0001.html > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 12322 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/cr-india/attachments/20090902/4c2c2f98/attachment-0001.jpe > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 14:17:14 +0530 > From: mahesh acharya <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [cr-india] on frequency > To: Dr Richie Rego SJ <[email protected]> > Cc: CR Forum <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear Dr. Richie, > > What is the transmitter output? and where is the transmitter located? CR > policy allows to use max 250watt transmitter. > > However this will not assure that everybody will be able to hear the > broadcast (the receiver should be in broadcast zone) but will improve > the > situation a bit. > > The other option is to put repeater(s) where the signal reception is > poor. > You will have to seek permission from Wireless Planning Commsn to do > this by > building a strong case. (audio recording etc) > > *Some antenna basics > * > Omnidirectional Antenna's radiate power uniformally in all directions. > Other > types of transmissions are unidirectional radiating more power in one > direction (usually the direction of antenna that is pointed). In terms > of > range difference omni directional will have small range of reception. > Uni's > range of rcption will b more. > > Music systems in cars cannot recve the broadcast for the fact that they > do > not have telescopic antenna (the ones u have on stand alone radio sets) > and > since output of sarang may is in watts compared to kilowatts (kilo=1000) > mobile phones will not rcve the broadcast at all unless they are very > very > close to transmitter. > > Solution: Listeners will have to use telescopic antenna for the radio in > music system. Using headphones in mobile may improve the situation a bit > as > headphones act as antenna. > > Radio sets that are not able to recve good quality audio can be improved > if > they point the telescopic antenna in the direction of the transmitter. > Keeping the set near window will also help in some cases. > > Regarding FM and AIR invading the freq, this may not be possible in all > the > radio sets. Some poor quality radio sets will recve strongest signals > even > though you have tuned to freq that you want to listen. > > There is some degree of separation between freq's assigned by WPC and > thus > some sets rcvng only FM and AIR may be true but not all. FM and AIR were > were already present b4 sarang was assigned the freq. > I could be wrong and in case all the radio sets are rcvng FM and AIR, > then > the matter should be taken up with WPC and I am sure they will look into > it. > > > Hope this helps. > > regards, > mahesh > vu3mbv > > * > > * > On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Dr Richie Rego SJ > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > Hi everyone! > > > > I have a problem. Would like to know how you would deal with this - we > have > > 107.8 MHz frequency assigned to us. But low power radio sets and > mobiles > > cannot receive our radio signals even in nearby areas - car stereo do. > That > > means, local communities are deprived of our transmission. People keep > > pleading us "increase signals" - they have listened to our station > sometime; > > they have read in newspapers. hence their demand. We are unable > because of > > the frequency. We checked why this happens. The answer is > 'frequency'. In > > addition - noise! > > > > Besides, private FMs and AIR keep invading our frequency gloriously. > All > > Our efforts and people's desire doesn't seem to be bearing fruit. > > > > How would be address this problem? > > I will try uploading an audio piece recorded from our own transmitter > in > > our own campus & in the vicinity of the College. You can feel the > noise and > > difference. > > > > If I succeed, the piece should be available through my blog > > www.richardrego.wordpress.com for you to get a taste. > > TC > > > > ==================================== > > Rev Dr Richard Rego SJ > > Director, SARANG SAC 107.8FM Community Radio > > Head & Asst Prof., MCMS > > Dept of Mass Communication > > St Aloysius College; P.B. 720 > > Mangalore - 575003. > > www.richardrego.wordpress.com > > www.staloysiuscollege.wordpress.com > > 0824-2449706. > > +919448546425. > > _______________________________________________ > cr-india mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/cr-india > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/cr-india/attachments/20090903/5ded937d/attachment-0001.html > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 12:19:01 +0530 > From: mahesh acharya <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [cr-india] On Frequency > To: [email protected] > Cc: [email protected] > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hello Hemant and all, > > I am not an expert in radio transmission however I would like to share some > of my thoughts that may be useful. > > I am sure the team has taken care of other things, I am very curious to have > a look at the set up. Can you send some foto's. Especially the transmission > cable between transmitter and antenna. > > There may be a possibility of signal leakages/signal loss from within the > equipment/cables or overheating. Example the transmission cable should not > be running along metallic surface (pipe), wall, or ground. > > I am curious to knw how did u measure the 50watts output. > > I am afraid the crackling noise is not picked up from the air. It is due to > phenomena called as FM threshold effect. And to put it in simple terms there > is mismatch in carrier to noise ratio. Thus u guys need to identify the > source of noise which I am pretty sure is originating from other sources > from within the studio. I would not be surprised if the source is tube > light!!, or machines in physics lab. > > For the benefit of other readers, voice and music from a radio actually > piggy backs (modulates) on a radio wave called a carrier (wave) and thus > called carrier. > > Hemant signals from 50w transmitter can reach further of the terrain is > flat. However it is the voice and music that should be audible. So if the > signals are reaching 15-20 km but not audiable...it is as good as not > audible in the technical audit. Please appreciate noise cannot b ignored as > it is 'present'. > > cheers! > mahesh > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Hemant <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 19:24:00 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Vickram Crishna <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > Since Nomad engineers have installed and re-analysed the problem faced > > by Dr Rego, I would like to share following observations: > > > > 1. The transmitter is generating exactly 50 watts of power as stipulated > > by the Government. > > > > 2. The antenna is giving the stipulated gain (approx 2.8 dBi) while coax > > length is less than 10 meters. > > > > 3. The SWR is less than 1.1 > > > > 4. System is not generating any noise or spurious. Some crackling sound > > is being picked up in air. > > > > 5. Signals are reaching as long as 15 to 20 km if you ignore the noise > > > > 5. All problems are sorted out if we operate anywhere else in the > > frequency band > > > > Possible reasons: > > > > 1. Spurious and harmonic interference from other RF systems, may not > > necessarily radio stations. > > > > 2. Very high levels of moisture due to monsoon season. > > > > Possible solutions: > > > > 1. Change the Frequency to 90.4 as given to many other community radio > > stations. > > > > 2. As it has been discussed before CRF should request WPC to avoid > > alloting 107.8 to low powered radio stations. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > in solidarity > > > > Hemant > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [cr-india] on frequency > > To: CR India <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Dr Rego > > > > There are two possible problems. One is that your own transmitter is not > > generating sufficient EIRP, which could be due to an antenna mismatch. > > The second, and more likely, is that other stations nearby are > > generating spurious signals at your allotted frequency band. As you > > report, they 'invade' your space. > > > > According to you, 'checking' for the cause only got you the answer > > 'frequency' - who gave you this answer? If it is anyone from the > > Ministry (telecom or broadcasting)/WPC, then perhaps you need to file an > > RTI asking them for copies of orders given to the other stations to > > repair their setup. > > > > It would also be useful to track the actual status of transmission > > during your broadcast timings, and also at other times, in order to > > establish whether your bandwidth is being cluttered by spurious signals > > from other nearby stations. Finally, is there a chance that you are > > located too close to the transmission towers of any other stations? The > > SACFA clearance was supposed to take care of this aspect, of course. > > > > Vickram > > http://communicall.wordpress.com > > http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Dr Richie Rego SJ <[email protected]> > > To: CR Forum <[email protected]> > > Sent: Wednesday, 2 September, 2009 22:57:35 > > Subject: [cr-india] on frequency > > > > > > > > Hi everyone! > > > > I have a problem. Would like to know how you would deal with this - we > > have 107.8 MHz frequency assigned to us. But low power radio sets and > > mobiles cannot receive our radio signals even in nearby areas - car > > stereo do. That means, local communities are deprived of our > > transmission. People keep pleading us "increase signals" - they have > > listened to our station sometime; they have read in newspapers. hence > > their demand. We are unable because of the frequency. We checked why > > this happens. The answer is 'frequency'. In addition - noise! > > > > Besides, private FMs and AIR keep invading our frequency gloriously. All > > Our efforts and people's desire doesn't seem to be bearing fruit. > > > > How would be address this problem? > > I will try uploading an audio piece recorded from our own transmitter in > > our own campus & in the vicinity of the College. You can feel the noise > > and difference. > > > > If I succeed, the piece should be available through my blog > > www.richardrego.wordpress.com for you to get a taste. > > TC > > > > ==================================== > > Rev Dr Richard Rego SJ > > Director, SARANG SAC 107.8FM Community Radio > > Head & Asst Prof., MCMS > > Dept of Mass Communication > > St Aloysius College; P.B. 720 > > Mangalore - 575003. > > www.richardrego.wordpress.com > > www.staloysiuscollege.wordpress.com > > 0824-2449706. > > +919448546425. > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/cr-india/attachments/20090902/4c2c2f98/attachment-0001.html > > -------------- next part -------------- > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: not available > > Type: image/jpeg > > Size: 12322 bytes > > Desc: not available > > Url : > > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/cr-india/attachments/20090902/4c2c2f98/attachment-0001.jpe > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 14:17:14 +0530 > > From: mahesh acharya <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [cr-india] on frequency > > To: Dr Richie Rego SJ <[email protected]> > > Cc: CR Forum <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: > > <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Dear Dr. Richie, > > > > What is the transmitter output? and where is the transmitter located? CR > > policy allows to use max 250watt transmitter. > > > > However this will not assure that everybody will be able to hear the > > broadcast (the receiver should be in broadcast zone) but will improve > > the > > situation a bit. > > > > The other option is to put repeater(s) where the signal reception is > > poor. > > You will have to seek permission from Wireless Planning Commsn to do > > this by > > building a strong case. (audio recording etc) > > > > *Some antenna basics > > * > > Omnidirectional Antenna's radiate power uniformally in all directions. > > Other > > types of transmissions are unidirectional radiating more power in one > > direction (usually the direction of antenna that is pointed). In terms > > of > > range difference omni directional will have small range of reception. > > Uni's > > range of rcption will b more. > > > > Music systems in cars cannot recve the broadcast for the fact that they > > do > > not have telescopic antenna (the ones u have on stand alone radio sets) > > and > > since output of sarang may is in watts compared to kilowatts (kilo=1000) > > mobile phones will not rcve the broadcast at all unless they are very > > very > > close to transmitter. > > > > Solution: Listeners will have to use telescopic antenna for the radio in > > music system. Using headphones in mobile may improve the situation a bit > > as > > headphones act as antenna. > > > > Radio sets that are not able to recve good quality audio can be improved > > if > > they point the telescopic antenna in the direction of the transmitter. > > Keeping the set near window will also help in some cases. > > > > Regarding FM and AIR invading the freq, this may not be possible in all > > the > > radio sets. Some poor quality radio sets will recve strongest signals > > even > > though you have tuned to freq that you want to listen. > > > > There is some degree of separation between freq's assigned by WPC and > > thus > > some sets rcvng only FM and AIR may be true but not all. FM and AIR were > > were already present b4 sarang was assigned the freq. > > I could be wrong and in case all the radio sets are rcvng FM and AIR, > > then > > the matter should be taken up with WPC and I am sure they will look into > > it. > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > regards, > > mahesh > > vu3mbv > > > > * > > > > * > > On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Dr Richie Rego SJ > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > Hi everyone! > > > > > > I have a problem. Would like to know how you would deal with this - we > > have > > > 107.8 MHz frequency assigned to us. But low power radio sets and > > mobiles > > > cannot receive our radio signals even in nearby areas - car stereo do. > > That > > > means, local communities are deprived of our transmission. People keep > > > pleading us "increase signals" - they have listened to our station > > sometime; > > > they have read in newspapers. hence their demand. We are unable > > because of > > > the frequency. We checked why this happens. The answer is > > 'frequency'. In > > > addition - noise! > > > > > > Besides, private FMs and AIR keep invading our frequency gloriously. > > All > > > Our efforts and people's desire doesn't seem to be bearing fruit. > > > > > > How would be address this problem? > > > I will try uploading an audio piece recorded from our own transmitter > > in > > > our own campus & in the vicinity of the College. You can feel the > > noise and > > > difference. > > > > > > If I succeed, the piece should be available through my blog > > > www.richardrego.wordpress.com for you to get a taste. > > > TC > > > > > > ==================================== > > > Rev Dr Richard Rego SJ > > > Director, SARANG SAC 107.8FM Community Radio > > > Head & Asst Prof., MCMS > > > Dept of Mass Communication > > > St Aloysius College; P.B. 720 > > > Mangalore - 575003. > > > www.richardrego.wordpress.com > > > www.staloysiuscollege.wordpress.com > > > 0824-2449706. > > > +919448546425. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > cr-india mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/cr-india > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/cr-india/attachments/20090904/14312343/attachment.html > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > cr-india mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/cr-india > > > End of cr-india Digest, Vol 70, Issue 6 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ cr-india mailing list [email protected] https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/cr-india
