Tahir (and others), Hi Thanks, all of you for the interventions. Nobody is banning Marxism, Malthusianism or any other (relevant) -ism from Crashlist. What we're trying to do is to get the greens, deep-ecologists and the trad Marxist (soi-disant) left talking. Obviously, we are succeeding. Hurrah. This is happening because despite monumental differences between some of us, we have something much greater, and desperately important, that we share in common. If this wasn't so, many people here would probably not choose to be talking to each other. But it IS so and we have to keep focussed on these ISSUES and not allow *any* debate to become a splitting-issue. There are NO splitting issues among people who share one overriding belief: the society and the ecosphere are in deep trouble and are facing Crash. The discussion about wages and labour is important, and it should go on. People with very different starting-points, in political belief-systems, values and ideas, are bumping into each other on this list, and there is inevitably plenty of confusion, horror, status-jostling and over-straight talking, and sometimes more heat than light. These debates about the fundamentals do have to go on some where and this place is as good as anywhere. The problem the social theorists tend to have is too much blind faith in the ability of science and technology to sort things out; the Marxists too often seem to share the crazed over-optimism of the economists. But we still do need social theory. The problem the deep-greens and the malthusians have got is that they often have no visible idea what to do AFTER the Crash. And it is no good substituting extreme pessimism for a willingness to think thru what kind of social models, agenda, pathways and programmes we need. We cannot all just join the Montana militias and head for the hills. The world is entering a period of climacteric change. We and every concerned person has to help think through how that epochal change-process can best be managed in the interests of all life, of the ecosphere and of human society. We don't need to prioritise one over the other; we are in lockstep, humans with the rest of nature and what happens to us happens to it and vice versa. So the distinctions between the deep-ecologist rejection of anthropocentrism, and the economists (?and marxist) rejection of deep-green so-called 'nihilism', is an artificial distinction, a distinction without a difference. Let us be supportive of each other on this list, be prepared to tolerate more differences than we are perhaps used to, do everything to avoid conduct which poisons the well of discourse, and do everything feasible to make debate truly enriching and enlightening. There are a lot of smart folks here, and we all have an awful lot of catching up to do. Tahir, these remarks are not addressed at you or anyone in particular, and I could have replied with equal relevance or lack of it to any one of a dozen posts. It's a plea for dialogue addressed to us all. Mark > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of TAHIR WOOD > Sent: 07 August 2000 11:33 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CrashList] Re: Communist Internationalist > PositiononImmigration and Travel > > > >>> "Julien Pierrehumbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 08/07 12:14 > PM >>> > As to my definition of capitalism, it's obviously not > "something like exploitation > of thrid world workers" but it's not only "markets or buying > and selling". Then > nearly every civilized economic system would be capitalist. > > But this is precisely the point. Bravo! Every civilised > economic system IS capitalist. And now that I see you have > grasped this fundamental point you might just understand the > enormity of what an "overthrow" of capitalism would entail. > But what else is worth struggling for? Be explicit please > (and see my other posts). > > Tahir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Crashlist resources: http://website.lineone.net/~resource_base > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/crashlist > _______________________________________________ Crashlist resources: http://website.lineone.net/~resource_base To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/crashlist
