>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/06/00 09:21PM >>>
> CB: When you say "RE-linking" , do you mean in the past "man" was linked
to that perception ?
Yes. In the past was what is now called by Quinn "the Great Forgetting",
when we forgot the 3 million years of evolution wherein we were perfectly
linked.
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CB: Gotta tell you. I am not very to open to concepts like "perfectly linked". It
starts to get religious
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You might look back a couple of posts to the reference to "Descent
into Olduvai" for a balanced view. I am informed that the new edition
"Descent of Woman" now has a discussion of this. Naess says we still carry
the capacity to link up. I'd take a while to explain further, ...
complicated, ... all that.
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CB: Yes, take your time. But remember I am a humanist. I don't go for
"anthropocentric".
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> What is your definition of _exploiting_ the natural world ?
Practicing unsustainable activity in every aspect of our culture. "Eating
our Grandchildren" is the way the Hopi describe it.
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CB: Still, at each point here your conceptions implicitly come down to human species
survival as the standard. "Unsustainable" means unsustainble in the sense that
something humans are using will runout. The notion of "linked" , perfectly or well,
means the human species being linked in a way that it doesn't use up what it needs to
survive.
>
> CB: Do you agree that 10,000's of species have extinguished in the course
of natural history by non-human causes, i.e. that's the way nature works ?
Of course. But that in no way supports or excuses the massive die-off
caused by man's exploitive activities.
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CB: What do you mean "exuse" ? Excuse for whom or what ? Who or what is the judge who
would or would not give the excuse ?
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Nature doesn't endanger or wipe out
whole orders of species over the course of 250 years.
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CB: Nature is right here, right now while the humans ( who are not outside of Nature)
are doing it. Ergo, the current extinction is by Nature, just as much as the Cambrian
extinction or the dinosaur extinction. Humans are natural beings. There is no such
thing as a non-natural being.
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(look at the current
extreme we have place the entire order of amphibians in, if you need a scary
wake-up call!) We are in the midst of one of the most devastating extinction
events in geological time, the direct result of our exploitive culture. See
E.O. Wilson's "Diversity of Life" for a prize-winning summary. I posted some
other stuff to the list a while back. If you are truly interested beyond
this discussion, ask me off list and I'll send you some.
> CB: Isn't true that the natural history of ecosystems is that they
change, not that they are preserved ? Wouldn't it be unnatural to arrest
everything in its current state ?
If you think the alternative is what we have now, you don't understand the
problem.
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CB: Alternative to what ?
))))))))))))))
You should not read Wilson's statement above as "arresting
everything"; he is concerned with allowing the *systems* to continue to
operate unmolested. i.e. it's okay for Momma Nature to kill species of bears
off, it ain't okay for the chinese bile market to do it.
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CB: Why is it ok for Momma Nature to kill species of bears off ?
I don't agree that it is possible to do anything that is not in line with Momma
Nature. Reality is natural. Humans are not capbable of violating the natural laws of
the universe ( Momma Nature).
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Implicit in your question is the idea that man's exploitive activity is
somehow a natural part of things and that nature is resilient enough to
absorb the activites. Since Rachel Carson we have begun to learn that nature
is not.
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CB: Are you seriously saying that humans could "destroy" nature ? The universe is
infinite. Huimans are infinitely small compared to nature.
On a lesser level , are you claiming that humanas are in the course of exterminating
all life on earth ? Cockroaches are pretty tough. Don't you think humans will die out
before all life is destroyed ?
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Again, the massive dieoff we have inflicted upon the biosystem
should have you much more alarmed than you appear to be.
> CB: Expending energy in politics is the only way humanity will survive.
Changing human conduct with respect to ecology is a political project. If
you don't have a political model , you will fail in your goals.
I am tempted to explain once again that this is a reason for participating
in Crashlist. However, your use of the word "only" up there disqualifies
your statement. "Changing human conduct" -- as little of it as can BE
changed -- is not just an operation for the political sphere. Tahir's
statement about state modeling notwithstanding, economic activity is another
area where marxists excel and can be useful. There is nothing "only" about
the issue under discussion. Every area of human culture needs attention.
However I do agree that failure is guarenteed without a political component.
Since I *do* have a political model -- Voila Crashlist, and my frustration
about gettin' on to a discussion of it.
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CB: Major changes in society must go through the political. Economic or cultural
change is controlled by the political, the power. Ultimately, economic change cannot
comeabout without poltical change first. Same with the cultural. _Capital_ is a
critique of POLITICALeconomy
This point may be a bit semantical. I don't know that we disagree in substance on the
last point.
With due respect, for us to have our most direct exchange, we should focus on the
humanism vs naturocentric issue. I am saying openly to you that my interest in other
species is through their impact on the human species. That is the crux of the general
difference I am feeling.
Best to you,
CB
Thanks, Charles
Tom
"They counted on being able to punish them into being better, on being able
to inspire them into being better, on being able to educate them into being
better. And after ten thousand years of trying to improve people--without a
trace of success -- they wouldn't dream of turning their attention
elsewhere." - My Ishmael, Daniel Quinn
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