Here's an answer to Stan. Charles will have to wait a bit longer.
>But you also seem to have no interest in how ***inextricable*** capitalism
>as the EXISTING SOCIAL ORDER is from the very problem we have under
>review.
I'm not sure what you mean with "inextricable". IMO capitalism can be reformed, but
it would be way better to destroy it. Anyway, I don't think that destroying capitalism
will somehow solve our population and lifestyle problem even if destroying
capitalism would make it easier to solve it. I hope that's clear enough. Now, if you
want to rephrase that inextricability thing so that I understand what's wrong with the
position I stated, please go ahead.
>Julien, there is no such thing as "historical coincidence." Methods of
>production and social systems did not accidentally evolve alongside one
>another. They are part and parcel of the same reality.
They are part of the same reality, but I don't believe in destiny. There is such
things
as coincidences.
>You have just said that bourgeois power did not exist
>aftet 1550. Re-look. This is obviously a typo.
I meant *immediately* after 1550.
>Our point is that
>bourgeois power exists NOW, and that this class NOW stands in the way of
>effecting the very changes we need for the survival of civilization. This
>is not a question of comparative morality. It's practical.
Again, I agree with that. I don't understand what's this morality business, though.
>Which demographical problem?
The one which humans used to have to confront before industrialisation. People
had too many kids and ended up overexploiting their environment because of that
and at some point, many died or went away.
> And how do pre-capitalist techniques,
>whichever ones you are referring to, change the fact that the current
>"techniques" are privately owned and secured by the states which those
>owners control?
The pre-capitalist techniques I'm talking about range from wood-cutting to mining to
irrigation.
Most of the techniques of today are not privately owned. This intellectual property
fundamentalism is relatively recent. Most of the stuff is legally in the public domain
and it's scientists and workers who have the know how to put them into practice.
What's privately owned is the means of production. So what? They are publically-
owned means of production, and they are much part of the problem as the
privately-owned ones. The problem is the system. Even if workers owned 100% of
the means of production, the benefit would only be marginal as long as they
continued to obey the rules and to pursue personal gains.
>Capitalism=private ownership and control of the means of production
>Socialism=social ownership and control of the means of production
This sounds like a good definition. I wish everyone went along with it. Apparently
Marx did not, which creates us unending problems like Charles claiming that
capitalism began around 1500, this date having nothing to do with a change of the
control of the means of production nor with a change in who controls the state as far
as I know.
>Maybe I'm missing the entire point. Is it that nothing can be done ...
Did I say nothing can be done? I said that, even with socialism, we can't drop out of
fossil fuels now. Fortunately, fossil fuels won't suddenly disapear in a few years, so
we have time. It will be much easier if many die and less are born. It would also be
easier if more sustainable techniques are developed. Anyway, the necessary
changes in behaviour would be very hard to swallow for most people.
>When the oil is gone, there won't be
>much choice, will there?
Yes, but between the production peak and that there is a very long time... And what
happens during that period will determine how the world will look like when the oil
will be gone. During the decline there is a choice: Among other things you can fight
your neighbour for the oil you need to keep on living like before or you can cut on
consumption.
>But for right now, I think I have good reason to continue to work toward
>smashing imperialism.
Absolutely. Go ahead! The bastards could manage to survive a dieoff otherwise.
Julien
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