Dear Joao,
Very good points.
Generally speaking, the CRM is defined to foster information integration,
and not term differentiation. So, a norrower definition might be
counterproductive,
and possibly we need more elaborate scope notes to differentiate our wider
meanings from others, narrowers, in literature.
Our definition in the CRM clearly follows the second citation,
"that it is not possible to generalize from the aboutness of
individual sentences in a document to the aboutness of the document as a
whole".
In precisely this sense, "P129 is about" is more specific than "P67 refers to".
The notion of "propositonal aboutness" you cite from Russell clearly does not
fit with what we intended with P129. I do not grasp actually the distinction
from the point of view what either phrase tells me about reality. If I am not
completely
wrong, there are scenarios of use in which both phrases are completely
equivalent.
The CRM does not intend to analyze the semantics of linguistic forms.
The notion of aboutness I mentioned in the scope note of the Propositional
Object
is precisely that "this expression makes a statement about". I think we can
find a
respective view in early Wittgenstein?
We need P67 as the most general notion that an entity is mentioned, in order to
collect
all information available "about" it.
Do you have any definition of "aboutness" from library science which comes
closer to
our understanding?
Could someone look up early Wittgenstein to find support for P67?
Best,
Martin
João Oliveira wrote:
Dear Martin and CIDOC CRM experts,
My concerning is about the subsumption relationship that exists between
'P67 refers to (is referred to by)' and 'P129 is about (is subject of)'
properties. I think the latter is not a subproperty of the former.
To justify my opinion, I will use two sources: one from Philosophy and
another from Library/Information Science.
The domain and image of these two properties are the same: E73
Information Object (or E89 Propositional Object) and E1 CRM Entity
respectively. At the end of this message there is the current P67 and
P129 scope notes.
In "Philosophy Without Ambiguity: A Logico-linguistic Essay / Atlas, J.
D." (p. 102) we can find the following:
///////////////////////////////
"for his (Russell) present propositional ABOUTNESS is a primitive
concept; and as it is for purposes of explanation a basic notion, it
would be desirable eventually to reduce it, by an appropriate
definition, to even more fundamental notions, though he does not know
what such notions are. It is clear, however, that such notions are not
'term', 'mention', or 'reference' which have instead been characterized
in term of 'aboutness'. Russell continues:
<quote>"And we distinguish between 'A is the father of B' and
'Fatherhood holds between A and B': the latter, but not the former, is
ABOUT fatherhood as well as A and B, and asserts, while the former does
not, a relation of fatherhood to A and B. Hence, although, at first
sight, the difference might seem to be a merely subjective difference of
emphasis, it results that there is a real LOGICAL difference [emphasis
added]"</quote>
///////////////////////////////
From this quotation, it's clear that (from the logico-linguistic point
of view) the 'reference' could be characterized by 'aboutness' but not
the opposite.
The P129 Scope Note make a reference to the "sense of 'aboutness' used
in library science". I think this definition should be reconsidered to a
specific sense because it's possible to find a lot of 'aboutness'
definitions in Library Scince. For example, in 'The Intellectual
Foundation of Information Organization / Elaine Svenonius' (p. 46-7)
it's possible to find incompatible 'aboutness' definitions from Bill
Marron vs. Christopher Fox & Terry Norreault vs. Brian Vickery vs.
Patrick Wilson. The latter "rejects the (grammatical) model on the
grounds that it is not possible to generalize from the aboutness of
individual sentences in a document to the aboutness of the document as a
whole".
So, I think that CIDOC CRM (in the light of FRBRoo concepts) should
offer a more precise P129 Scope Note (or "the 'aboutness' must be define
without 'references' to external sources" :-), and should drop the
subsumption relationship between P67 and P129.
Best
Joao Oliveira
PS. More information about 'aboutness' and Patrick Wilson's aboutness
definition at [
http://www.db.dk/bh/Core%20Concepts%20in%20LIS/articles%20a-z/subject.htm ]
//////////////////////
P129 is about (is subject of) - Scope Note
"This property identifies a E1 CRM Entity that is the subject of an E73
Information Object, in the sense of "aboutness" used in library science.
This differs from P67 refers to (is referred to by), which refers to an
E1 CRM Entity, in that it describes the primary subject or subjects of
the E73 Information Object."
P67 refers to (is referred to by) - Scope Note
"An E73 Information Object may refer to any other E1 CRM Entity.
This property documents that an E73 Information Object makes a statement
about an instance of an E1 CRM Entity. P67refers to (is referred to by)
has the P67.1 has type link to an instance of E55 Type. This is intended
to allow a more detailed description of the type of reference. This
differs from P129 is about (is subject of), which describes the primary
subject or subjects of the E73 Information Object."
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 3:45 PM, martin <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Dear All,
Attached a proposal of a scope note for E89 Propositional Object.
This class would
allow us to model the distinction of symbolic form and conceptual
content on top of
E73 Information Object, which combines both.
Best
martin
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Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
Principle Researcher | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
| Email: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> |
|
Center for Cultural Informatics |
Information Systems Laboratory |
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Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
|
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Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
Principle Researcher | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
| Email: [email protected] |
|
Center for Cultural Informatics |
Information Systems Laboratory |
Institute of Computer Science |
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
|
Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
|
Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl |
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