Re: [Crm-sig] P107.1 and P144.1, a negative vote

Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:53:34 +0200 

Dear all,
I will write a little note about the singleton and the groups. I will just point out that the current scope note of group, states explicitly that a group must have two or more members. The scope note does not say anything about time since the persistent items are timeless. Thus I assume that an office like the presidency of US is a group. 


There is also another aspect with group, "act collectively or in a 
similar way due to any form of unifying relationship". The question is 
if all related persons have this property.?

Chr-Emi

Scope note

This class comprises any gatherings or organizations of two or more 
people that act collectively or in a similar way due to any form of 
unifying relationship



On 21.11.2008 18:30, martin wrote:



[email protected] wrote:

Dear Martin and all
I still think it is artifical because one in this way use groups as
extensions of thought predicates. This is of course already introduce by

the use of group as a way to simulate/implement  interpersonal 
relations. I am not quit sure I buy the argument that this is the 
ontological nature.

It also moves much of the deduction from the CRM "proper" to the type
system.

The most important thing for "my" user group is the short cut and not the
elaborated path, because in written source one usually only get
information about the relation and nothing more.  I am interested to see
how the shortcut is done in this set approach

So I will no withdraw my suggestion until convinced or down voted.

Ad voting in the SIG. I think secret voting like in this case is not a
good patrh to follow. I  prefer an open dabate.



Of course, I didn't want to count the vote, but I found the idea 
interesting,

always in the spirit of keeping CRM a core model.

If no other votes come in until Monday, I regard the issue as accepted.

Best,

Martin


Regards,
Christian-Emil


Dear Christian-Emil,

Yes, this is the solution. Of course you may argue, that it is more
indirect.
P107 is both, individual member and subgroup membership. So, there is a
subgroup
membership. My question, you may express the problem with "very
artificial", is actually
what the ontological nature, the substance of the roles are. If they are
positions,
personae, they would be not so much relations between an Individual and
the Group, but a
structure of the Group, and would be better expressed by specializations
of Groups and

their parts. If we regard them as relational, they are better 
expressed by

subproperties
or 107.1 . If we keep 107.1, and regard nevertheless the model of
singleton Groups as valid,
then, p107.1 would represent shortcuts over singleton Groups.

Opinions?


Martin

[email protected] wrote:

Dear all
First of all it is difficult to comment a solution which is not
presented
but just referred to. I assume that this unknown suggested solution is
as
follows:

Assume a master and an apprentice: An actor can be the only member of a

singleton group. The relationship master.-apprentice can be 
expressed as

a
group having the master-singleton and the apprentice-singleton as
members.
The type of the singleton-group can express the relation the members
have
in the master-apprentice group. If this is the solution it is of course

possible but very artificial like epicycle models of  the planet 
orbits.


I may be blind, but I dont find any sub group property in the model.

Regards,
Christian-Emil




Dear All,

I just received a contribution voting against P107.1 and P144.1,

with the argument that following our definition of Group, it can be
also
an office or
position. So, we could model master and apprentice as subgroups - no
need
for any extension.
Also, this could consistently describe changing positions.

Comments welcome.

Best,

Martin
--

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
  Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
                                |  Email: [email protected] |
                                                              |
                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
                Information Systems Laboratory                |
                 Institute of Computer Science                |
    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
                                                              |
  Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
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          Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
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--

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
  Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
                                |  Email: [email protected] |
                                                              |
                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
                Information Systems Laboratory                |
                 Institute of Computer Science                |
    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
                                                              |
  Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
                                                              |
          Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
--------------------------------------------------------------

































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