A not uncommon English translation of Frege’s Sinn und Bedeutung is sense and 
meaning... thus, talking about meaning independent from the reference function 
is confusing (even if it is done quite a bit, I know, and even if it in some 
contexts makes sense (macht es auch Sinn?)).

It can be explained, I just wonder if it is worth it when meaning is addressed 
later on. It would take some additional sentences to make it clear I think.

Regards,

Øyvind

> Am 13.10.2019 um 20:47 schrieb Martin Doerr <[email protected]>:
> 
> Well, what is meant is "meaning as an expression independent from its use as 
> an appellation for a particular thing".
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Martin
> 
> On 10/13/2019 2:30 PM, Øyvind Eide wrote:
>> Dear Martin,
>> 
>> Just one small detail:
>> 
>>> This class comprises signs, either meaningful or not, or arrangements of 
>>> signs following a specific syntax, […]
>> Denotation is commonly connected to the concept of meaning. Thus, even if a 
>> place name is a series of sounds with no meaning as a word apart from the 
>> reference function as a place name, the denotation itself gives the 
>> appellation a certain kind of meaning.
>> 
>> As a discussion of meaning follows in the next paragraph anyway I suggest a 
>> change to:
>> 
>>> This class comprises signs or arrangements of signs following a specific 
>>> syntax, […]
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Øyvind
>> 
>>> On 12 Oct 2019, at 20:30, Martin Doerr <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear All,
>>> 
>>> With the deletion of many subclasses of E41 Appellation here my suggestion 
>>> for adjustment:
>>> 
>>> NEW:
>>> 
>>> E41 Appellation
>>> 
>>> Subclass of:         E90 Symbolic Object
>>> 
>>> Superclass of:      E35 Title
>>> 
>>> E42 Identifier
>>> 
>>>  Scope note:         This class comprises signs, either meaningful or not, 
>>> or arrangements of signs following a specific syntax, that are used or can 
>>> be used to refer to and identify a specific instance of some class or 
>>> category within a certain context.
>>> 
>>>  Instances of E41 Appellation do not identify things by their meaning, even 
>>> if they happen to have one, but instead by convention, tradition, or 
>>> agreement. Instances of E41 Appellation are cultural constructs; as such, 
>>> they have a context, a history, and a use in time and space by some group 
>>> of users. A given instance of E41 Appellation can have alternative forms, 
>>> i.e., other instances of E41 Appellation that are always regarded as 
>>> equivalent independent from the thing it denotes.
>>> 
>>>  Even though instances of E41 Appellation are not words of a language, 
>>> different language groups may use different appellations for the same 
>>> thing, such as the names of major cities. Some appellations may be 
>>> formulated using a valid noun phrase of a particular language. In these 
>>> cases, the respective instances of E41 Appellation should also be declared 
>>> as instances of E33 Linguistic Object. Then the language group using the 
>>> appellation can be declared with the property P72 has language: E56 
>>> Language.
>>> 
>>>  Instances of E41 Appellation may be used to identify any instance of E1 
>>> CRM Entity and sometimes are characteristic for instances of more specific 
>>> subclasses E1 CRM Entity, such as for instances of E52 Time-Span (for 
>>> instance “dates”), E39 Actor, E53 Place or E28 Conceptual Object. Postal 
>>> addresses and E-mail addresses are characteristic examples of identifiers 
>>> used by services transporting things between clients.
>>> 
>>>  Even numerically expressed identifiers in continua are also regarded as 
>>> instances of E41 Appellation, such as Gregorian dates or  spatial 
>>> coordinates, even though they allow for determining the time or spot or are 
>>> they identify by a known procedure starting from a reference point and by 
>>> virtue of that play a double role as instances of E59 Primitive Value.
>>> 
>>>  E41 Appellation should not be confused with the act of naming something. 
>>> Cf. E15 Identifier Assignment
>>> 
>>> Examples:
>>> 
>>> §  "Martin"
>>> 
>>> §  "the Forth Bridge"
>>> 
>>> §  "the Merchant of Venice" (E35) (McCullough, 2005)
>>> 
>>> §  "Spigelia marilandica (L.) L." [not the species, just the name] 
>>> (Hershberger, Jenkins and Robacker, 2015)
>>> 
>>> §  "information science" [not the science itself, but the name through 
>>> which we refer to it in an English-speaking context]
>>> 
>>> §  “安” [Chinese “an”, meaning “peace”]
>>> 
>>> §  “6°5’29”N 45°12’13”W”
>>> 
>>> §  “Black queen’s bishop 4” [chess coordinate][MD1]
>>> 
>>> §  “1900”
>>> 
>>> §  “4-4-1959”
>>> 
>>> §  “19-MAR-1922”
>>> 
>>> §  “19640604”[MD2]
>>> 
>>> §  “+41 22 418 5571”
>>> 
>>> §  [email protected][MD3]
>>> 
>>> §  “Vienna”
>>> 
>>> §  “CH-1211, Genève”
>>> 
>>> §  “Aquae Sulis Minerva”
>>> 
>>> §  “Bath”
>>> 
>>> §  “Cambridge”
>>> 
>>> §  “the Other Place”
>>> 
>>> §  “the City”[MD4]
>>> 
>>> §  “1-29-3 Otsuka, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo, 121, Japan”
>>> 
>>> §  “Rue David Dufour 5, CH-1211, Genève”[MD5]
>>> 
>>> §  “the entrance lobby to the Ripley Center”
>>> 
>>> §  “the poop deck of H.M.S Victory”
>>> 
>>> §  “the Venus de Milo’s left buttock”
>>> 
>>> §  “left inner side of my box”
>>> 
>>> §  “the entrance lobby to the Ripley Center”
>>> 
>>> §  “the poop deck of H.M.S Victory”
>>> 
>>> §  “the Venus de Milo’s left buttock”
>>> 
>>> §  “left inner side of my box”[MD6]
>>> 
>>> §
>>> 
>>>  In First Order Logic:
>>> 
>>>                            E41(x) ⊃ E90(x)
>>> 
>>>      [MD1]Transfer of examples from deprecated E47
>>> 
>>>  [MD2]Transfer of examples from E50 Date
>>> 
>>>  [MD3]Transfer of examples from E51 Contact Point
>>> 
>>>  [MD4]Transfer of examples from E44 Place Appellation
>>> 
>>>  [MD5]Transfer of examples from E54 Address
>>> 
>>>  [MD6]Transfer of examples from E46 Section definition
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>  Dr. Martin Doerr
>>>                 Honorary Head of the
>>>  Center for Cultural Informatics
>>>    Information Systems Laboratory
>>>  Institute of Computer Science
>>>  Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>>>                     N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
>>>  GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>>>    Vox:+30(2810)391625
>>>  Email:
>>> [email protected]
>>>     Web-site:
>>> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>>  
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>> [email protected]
>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Crm-sig mailing list
>> [email protected]
>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
> 
> 
> -- 
> ------------------------------------
> Dr. Martin Doerr
>               Honorary Head of the
> Center for Cultural Informatics
>  Information Systems Laboratory
> Institute of Computer Science
> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>                   N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>  Vox:+30(2810)391625
> Email: [email protected]
> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Crm-sig mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
> 


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