I agree with P125(x,y,w) ⇔ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)] and the argument that the "w" should just be propagated in both directions.
In fact, I was wondering if the argument is specific for P125/P16 or if it can be applied to all "of type" properties that are strong shortcuts? For example P199 "represents instance of type": short: E36 Visual Item P199 represents instance of type E55 Type long: E36 Visual Item P138 represents [P138.1 mode of representation] E1 CRM Entity P2 has type E55 Type P199(x,y,w) ⇔ (∃z) [E1(z) ∧ P138(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)] > A) I'd argue that P138.1 mode of representation is indeed identical to > P62.1. Simply, similar examples have not been provided. I suggest a FOL for > that. What does it mean that the .1 properties in a weak shortcut are identical? short: E24 Physical Human-Made Thing P62 depicts [P62.1 mode of depiction] E1 CRM Entity long: E24 Physical Human-Made Thing P65 shows visual item E36 Visual Item P138 represents E1 [P138.1 mode of representation] CRM Entity P62(x,y) ⇐ (∃z) [E36(z) ∧ P65(x,z) ∧ P138(z,y)] Do you have something like this in mind? P62(x,y,w) ⇐ (∃z) [E36(z) ∧ P65(x,z) ∧ P138(z,y,w)] P62(x,y,w) ∧ E36(z) ∧ P65(x,z) ∧ P138(z,y) ⇒ P138(z,y,w) Or in one line: E62(x,y) ∧ E36(z) ∧ P65(x,z) ∧ P138(z,y) ⇒ [P62(x,y,w) ⇔ P138(z,y,w)] Wolfgang > Am 01.12.2022 um 16:11 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig > <[email protected]>: > > I agree with: > > So we need to add (6) > P125(x,y,w) ⇒ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)] > > That is, if an activity x, uses things of type y in the mode of w then there > exists a thing used in x in the mode of w and the type of x is y. But now we > need to take into consideration that the short path has a .1-property and we > add > P125(x,y,w) ⇐ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)] > > 😁 > > > On 12/1/2022 12:02 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig wrote: >> Thank you for your comment. The second argument of the P125 is the type of >> things used in an activity. Still the type of an object is not equal to the >> way such an object is used in an activity. Trilobite fossils can be used in >> the production of a jewellery as a mold. (My daughter has one in gilded >> silver). >> >> This is an argument for a P125.1 mode of use. >> >> The technicalities: >> P16(x,z,w) is the current notation for P16.1(x,z,w) >> >> (1) for all w P16(x,z,w) ⇒ P16(x,z) >> >> and we already have declared the axiom >> (2) P125(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z) ∧ P2(z,y)] >> >> and (3) below can be deduced from (1) and (2): >> (3) P125(x,y) ⇐ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)] >> >> The other way is not so easy since (5) below cannot be deduced from (2) >> since the fact that a specific thing is used in an activity does not imply >> that this thing is used in the mode of used described by any instance of E55 >> Type which would have been the case if (4) were universally true. >> (4)P16(x,z) ⇒ P16(x,z,y) >> (5) P125(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,y) ∧ P2(z,y)] >> >> So we need to add (6) >> P125(x,y,w) ⇒ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)] >> >> That is, if an activity x, uses things of type y in the mode of w then there >> exists a thing used in x in the mode of w and the type of x is y. But now we >> need to take into consideration that the short path has a .1-property and we >> add >> P125(x,y,w) ⇐ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)] >> >> I hope this is correct. >> Christian-Emil >> From: Crm-sig <[email protected]> on behalf of Martin Doerr via >> Crm-sig <[email protected]> >> Sent: 30 November 2022 16:11 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] issue 534Shortcuts, .1-properties and the long paths >> >> OK, 😁, >> >> If I understand correctly, the "w" should just be propagated in both >> directions. If P125, nothing tells us that the unknown z is the same as one >> possibly in a full path of the same activity. Nothing tells us why there >> should not be more than one "w" for the same z. Is that what you mean? >> >> I'd support creating such a P125.1. >> >> Best, >> >> Martin >> >> On 11/30/2022 3:57 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig wrote: >>> >>> >>> B: >>> Typo: P125 should be P125.1 in the bold phrase. >>> >>> "The implication from the long path to the shortcut is ok since the >>> shortcut has no .1-property. The implication from the shortcut to the long >>> path is problematic since there is a .1-property in the long path. It is >>> possible to imagine that the shortcut could have a P125.1 mode of use:E55 >>> Type, but the range instance of P16.1 and P125.1 must be identical so the >>> following additional FOL axiom would have to be added: >>> >>> P125(x,y,w) ⇔ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)]" >>> >>> >>> From: Crm-sig <[email protected]> on behalf of Martin Doerr via >>> Crm-sig <[email protected]> >>> Sent: 30 November 2022 14:35 >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] issue 534Shortcuts, .1-properties and the long paths >>> >>> Dear Christian-Emil, >>> >>> I agree with your precise analysis, except for: >>> >>> A) I'd argue that P138.1 mode of representation is indeed identical to >>> P62.1. Simply, similar examples have not been provided. I suggest a FOL >>> for that. >>> >>> "P138.1 mode of representation seems to be unrelated to P62.1 mode of >>> depiction. >>> >>> Conclusion >>> Neither of the .1-properties in the long path are semantically related to >>> the .1-property of the shortcut property. Since P62 is declared as a >>> shortcut of the long path, it cannot have the .1-property." >>> >>> I agree that P67.1 is unrelated. The kind of reference of a P138 instance >>> would be "represents". This is implicit I think in the explanation of .1 >>> properties of "has type"-type in the introduction. Could be a new issue. >>> >>> B) >>> "The implication from the long path to the shortcut is ok since the >>> shortcut has no .1-property. The implication from the shortcut to the long >>> path is problematic since there is a .1-property in the long path. It is >>> possible to imagine that the shortcut could have a P125.1 mode of use:E55 >>> Type, but the range instance of P16.1 and P125 must be identical so the >>> following additional FOL axiom would have to be added: >>> >>> P125(x,y,w) ⇔ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)]" >>> >>> >>> >>> I have not understood why "the range instance of P16.1 and P125 must be >>> identical ". >>> >>> E.g., used "passiflora racemosa flower", mode of use "as model", (Martin >>> Johnson Heade, "Hummingbirds and Passionflowers", ca 1870-1883, Museum of >>> Fine Arts Boston, >>> https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/hummingbird-and-passionflowers/LAEr7eIcfErZwg?hl=en-GB&ms=%7B%22x%22%3A0.5%2C%22y%22%3A0.5%2C%22z%22%3A8.643661874326806%2C%22size%22%3A%7B%22width%22%3A3.2807205935359844%2C%22height%22%3A1.2375%7D%7D) >>> >>> a typical case for the ten thousands of botanical images from European >>> botanical researchers in the previous centuries. >>> >>> Funny example is John James Audubon: He reportedly shot a bird in 1812 in >>> Pennsylvania, named it "Regulus cuvieri", painted it probably with an error >>> in "Birds of America", so that this species was never seen again. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On 11/30/2022 1:35 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig wrote: >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> My HW can be found here: >>>> >>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kd-zCO8e00WoKWb-9VAm96ECDEA2O_1iFI6kpgcuCnE >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Christian-Emil >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>> >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------ >>> Dr. Martin Doerr >>> >>> Honorary Head of the >>> >>> Center for Cultural Informatics >>> >>> Information Systems Laboratory >>> Institute of Computer Science >>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) >>> >>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, >>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece >>> >>> Vox:+30(2810)391625 >>> Email: >>> [email protected] >>> >>> Web-site: >>> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Crm-sig mailing list >>> >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------ >> Dr. Martin Doerr >> >> Honorary Head of the >> >> Center for Cultural Informatics >> >> Information Systems Laboratory >> Institute of Computer Science >> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) >> >> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, >> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece >> >> Vox:+30(2810)391625 >> Email: >> [email protected] >> >> Web-site: >> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > -- > ------------------------------------ > Dr. Martin Doerr > > Honorary Head of the > > Center for Cultural Informatics > > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: > [email protected] > > Web-site: > http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig _______________________________________________ Crm-sig mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
