Dear Francesco, You have raised some interesting points which, I think, need discussion (but after closing this issue đ), including: - what was the motivation of introducing property classes - how can we tackle ambiguity of PCs (classes vs properties, etc etc) - why not directly using the standard RDF reification vocabulary <https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_reificationvocab>, where properties can be attached to statements/triples. I will include your comments in the working document of Issue 588, with a suggestion to open a new issue for discussing and working on them.
Best regards, Pavlos On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 8:39âŻPM Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig < [email protected]> wrote: > Dear Pavlos, all > > reconsidering this question of the properties of properties and the > proposed solution of the properties-classes remain some doubts and > interrogations to me, in particular in relation with the best practices in > the field of serialization of conceptual models in RDF. > > Metadata about properties as instances, i.e. statement, can be expressed > with the standard RDF reification or the new RDF* standard. > > What is the best practice in the RDF community to express this kind of > properties of properties (and also dates, etc. added to properties in > conceptual models) ? > > > And furthermore: are the CRM properties of properties just 'metadata' or > do they carry some additional ontological substance ? > > The technical solution of 'PC' does not remove all ambiguity: are they in > the end properties or classes? and when we talk about adding, as now, > labels and scope notes to the PCs they do becomes classes, don't they? what > is then their substance? just to be reified properties? > > One could come to think that in fact there is more substance but not > totally and adequately expressed, and that should be more carefully > analyzed like in the case of P14.1 in the role of: E55 Type or P107.1 kind > of member: E55 Type. > > Take the example of P3.1 has type: E55 Type â "This property allows > differentiation of specific notes, e.g., âconstructionâ, âdecorationâ etc." > (thank you Pavlos for the work you've done). > > If P3 is not just taken as a CRM replacement of *rdfs:comment*, shouldn't > the so called associated 'note' be modelled as an information object of > type 'damage description' (chipped at edge of handle) related to the > corresponding human-made object by P129 is about. Or 'chipped at edge of > handle' would be a E3 Condition or State and the 'note' its description? > > But because P3 has E62 String as a range, which "is not further elaborated > upon within the model", it becomes âP3 I meanâ quite relevant as it > captures the characterization of the item itself, its internal structures, > appearance etc. > > So, again, are there any best practices in other communities of RDF > experts that apply to these types of situations that should be analyzed > before further specifying a notion of PC that doesn't seem totally > justified, or raising ontological analisis issues, instead of using simple > RDF reification? > > Best > > Francesco > > Le 01.12.22 Ă 17:35, Pavlos Fafalios via Crm-sig a Ă©crit : > > Dear all, > > Please find my revised homework for issue 588 > <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-588-common-policy-method-for-implementing-the-.1-properties-of-base-and-extensions-in-rdf> > below: > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1b0wW70xo2wjxNlWHYDRl7nr-fzYXTchN?usp=share_link > > Feel free to add your comments or send your feedback! > > Best regards, > Pavlos > > On Tue, Sep 13, 2022 at 11:23 AM Pavlos Fafalios <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Dear Mark, all, >> >> I agree, we need to make clear which constructs of the RDF are not part >> of CIDOC-CRM (especially since they make use of the same namespace). >> One way is to add a note in the beginning of the file. Another way would >> be to provide them through a different namespace (not sure if this is a >> good solution--needs some thinking). >> >> This is also a good reason for having them in a different RDF file: all >> classes and properties in this file, except the .1 properties, are not part >> of CIDOC-CRM, while the .1 properties have a 'domain' class that is also >> not part of CIDOC-CRM. >> >> Best, >> Pavlos >> >> On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 5:53 PM Mark Fichtner <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> nice work, thanks! I think for RDF this is a valid representation, >>> although I am not very happy to add properties that are not in the cidoc >>> crm directly and that are not part of the language itself (like in this >>> case crm:P03_reifies). As a user/reader of the rdf it is simply hard to >>> understand what is part of the cidoc crm itself and what comes due to >>> "workarounds". Even in as a new ontology/file/addon it mixes cidoc crm and >>> non-cidoc crm things. >>> >>> Also we have a reification concept (E13 Attribute Assignment), I am not >>> sure if we need even more of these. >>> >>> I'm looking forward to the discussion! >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Mark Fichtner >>> >>> Germanisches Nationalmuseum >>> >>> Am Mo., 12. Sept. 2022 um 14:22 Uhr schrieb Pavlos Fafalios via Crm-sig < >>> [email protected]>: >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Please find my homework for issue 588 >>>> <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-588-common-policy-method-for-implementing-the-.1-properties-of-base-and-extensions-in-rdf> >>>> in the below link (as well as in the issues' folder): >>>> >>>> >>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oQRkmMUgyOeDsn3ZbPuQ__VtbigS9DVsHjmOtvx16uo/edit?usp=sharing >>>> >>>> Apologies for the delay! Feel free to add your comments or send your >>>> feedback! >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Pavlos >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Pavlos Fafalios >>>> >>>> Postdoctoral researcher (Marie Curie IF - Project ReKnow >>>> <https://reknow.ics.forth.gr/>) >>>> Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory >>>> Institute of Computer Science - FORTH >>>> >>>> Visiting Lecturer >>>> Department of Management Science & Technology >>>> Hellenic Mediterranean University >>>> >>>> Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ >>>> Email: [email protected] >>>> Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece >>>> Tel: +30-2810-391619 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> Pavlos Fafalios >> >> Postdoctoral researcher (Marie Curie IF - Project ReKnow >> <https://reknow.ics.forth.gr/>) >> Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory >> Institute of Computer Science - FORTH >> >> Visiting Lecturer >> Department of Management Science & Technology >> Hellenic Mediterranean University >> >> Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ >> Email: [email protected] >> Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece >> Tel: +30-2810-391619 >> >> > > -- > Pavlos Fafalios > > Postdoctoral researcher (Marie Curie IF - Project ReKnow > <https://reknow.ics.forth.gr/>) > Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science - FORTH > > Visiting Lecturer > Department of Management Science & Technology > Hellenic Mediterranean University > > Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ > Email: [email protected] > Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece > Tel: +30-2810-391619 > > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing > [email protected]http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > -- Pavlos Fafalios Postdoctoral researcher Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science - FORTH Visiting Lecturer Department of Management Science & Technology Hellenic Mediterranean University Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ Email: [email protected] Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece Tel: +30-2810-391619
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