Cryptography-Digest Digest #333, Volume #10 Wed, 29 Sep 99 17:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: EAR Relaxed? Really? (Greg)
Re: Q: Burrows-Wheeler transform ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Compress before Encryption (Alan Morgan)
Re: msg for Dave Scott (Tom St Denis)
Q: Burrows-Wheeler transform (Mok-Kong Shen)
Re: Q: Burrows-Wheeler transform (Mok-Kong Shen)
Irish schoolgirl wins European Young Scientist Award (T.P Harte)
Re: EAR Relaxed? Really? ("karl malbrain")
Re: RSA Variation (Paul Koning)
Re: msg for Dave Scott (JPeschel)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Greg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: talk.politics.crypto
Subject: Re: EAR Relaxed? Really?
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 19:08:05 GMT
> Judge: *I* interpret the law, you are supposed to *execute*
> the law (and the legislature, Constitution, and English
> Common Law *make* the law). Sit down and shaddup.
Okay, so you want the judge to ignore the law play activist
judge in this scenario? I can play along. Let's get real-
reality, that is:
FBI witness: The file contained kiddie porn.
Defendant: No, it didn't. It's just random bits I generated
to hear what white noise would sound like.
Attorney: FBI witness, by what means did you convert the
file into kiddie porn?
FBI witness: I'm not going to say, but trust me.
Defendant: Your honor, I move that this case be dismissed
for a lack of evidence.
Judge: Your argument has no standing in this court.
Attorney: I move that you find summary judgment against
the defendent.
Judge: Based upon current law, I see no alternative.
Motion for summary judgment is granted!
Reporter: Score another one for those who are trying to
destroy the system of law and common sense here
in America.
8 yr old: Mommy, what does this mean?
Mom: Your dad just got screwed by those who swore to
protect his rights, the constitution, and the law.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Q: Burrows-Wheeler transform
Date: 29 Sep 1999 19:53:55 GMT
Mok-Kong Shen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> While compression is, as far as I am aware, generally regarded
> as orthogonal to encryption, it is nontheless an aid to information
> security, I suppose. Recently I read somewhere a claim that the
> Burrows-Wheeler transform is a better compression technique than
> Huffman or arithmetic encoding. Could some person having knowledge
> and experience with that say whether this is true and whether the
> advantage passes on to encryption? (Could it be that it is slower?)
As I'm sure you'd suspect, the answer is much more complex than simply
saying one algorithm is "better" than another. And it's even more
complex because you're not clear what you're comparing against. There
is no compression scheme called an "arithmetic coder". There are
different modeling algorithms that when combined with an arithmetic
coder give a compression algorithm. Simple first-order modeling
followed by arithmetic coding is not very good. High-order modeling
with blending followed by arithmetic coding is the best compression
known (algorithms such as PPMD or PPMZ).
The problem is that these best-compression algorithms are not terribly
fast. In particular, they're considerably slower than LZ (dictionary)
based schemes, which form the basis for things like "compress" and
"gzip". That's why PPM* schemes weren't used a whole lot except in
compression research.
Enter BWT: it's a pre-processing transformation that is usually
followed by move-to-front coding and arithmetic coding (so BWT-based
compression usually includes arithmetic coding!). This scheme is
moderately fast at compression, and very fast at uncompression. And
the performance rivals the PPM* schemes, although it's still not quite
as good. Programs like "bzip" and "szip" use BWT (although the widely
used "bzip2" uses Huffman coding rather than arithmetic coding,
because there are some questionable patent issues with arithmetic
coding).
So in summary: Burrows-Wheeler does not give the best compression,
but it's close to the best, and the time-performance trade-off is
quite good. That's why you're seeing bzip2 replacing gzip in a lot of
places (like large software distributions).
As for it's use in an encryption setting, I don't really know how it
would fare...
--
Steve Tate --- srt[At]cs.unt.edu | Gratuitously stolen quote:
Dept. of Computer Sciences | "The box said 'Requires Windows 95, NT,
University of North Texas | or better,' so I installed Linux."
Denton, TX 76201 |
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alan Morgan)
Subject: Re: Compress before Encryption
Date: 29 Sep 1999 19:32:27 GMT
In article <7stk34$2oik$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
SCOTT19U.ZIP_GUY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <7stguu$53l$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alan Morgan)
>wrote:
>>In article <7st5oh$c9m$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>SCOTT19U.ZIP_GUY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>
>>> The problem Tom is your to stupid to understand proof.
>>
>>Did being an asshole come easily to you or did you have to work at it?
> It was something I learned from Phd's from Stanford and Berkeley.
>I guess I was a quick study. But I see your on your why too.
Alas, I'm just a lowly ex-Masters student. However, I did attend both Berkeley and
Stanford, so I guess that helps.
And it's "you're". "You are" -> "you're". I don't normally indulge in
specific spelling flames but this particular one drives me nuts.
>>> For those of you not following this thread or for Tommy since his brain
>>>can't seen to retain anythng that a crypto god has hand fed him. If you
>>>use a compresion decompression that can take treat any file as a
>>>valid compressed file. Then it is safe to use on your data before you
>>>encrypt.
>>
>>This is clearly not sufficient. I would also point out that you have not given
>>any quantitative results comparing the benefits of 1-1 compression (as you
>>put it) vs. (say) bzip with the fixed headers removed. You seem to think that
>>the difference is major. Do you have any evidence for this or are you just
>>blowing smoke?
> I don't smoke. And I am not sure where you are coming from. What is
>clearly not sufficient?
Having a decompression algorithm that can treat any file as input data doesn't
necessarily give you a useful algorithm. I offer the pathological case of
the decompression algorithm that does nothing. Obviously no one but the purists
would call this a compression algorithm, but it does illustrate that merely
being 1-1 does not promise that there is no extra context lying around.
I notice that you didn't answer my question. What is the security difference
between using your 1-1 compressor and stripping the header off of a bzipped
file? It may be greater, but you seem to be jumping up and down and crowing
about how intelligent you are and I haven't seen the slightest indication as
to whether this is a huge win in security or just a minor improvement. Based
on your postings here I'm not sure you are capable of doing the analysis.
>>Anyway, doesn't splitting the message in half before encrypting and putting
>>the second half first go a long way towards solving this known header problem?
> This whole thread was around the concept of "if one is using compression"
>before one encrypts then what kind of characteristes would be desirable in the
>compression method so that your not giving information to an attacker in
>solving or breaking the message. The problem with most compression methods
>is that they can't treat an arbitrary file of bits as a valid compressed file
>that when umcompressed and recompressed you end up with the same file.
> And besides you may lack the intelligence to realize that one could still
>guess a key and only look at last half of the file minus a few blocks to see
>if the header is there. We are making the assumption the attacker may not
>know what your files is put he knows what you are doing with it.
That depends on the encryption algorithm used and the mode in which it is used.
It is not difficult to make that sort of random access hopelessly impractical.
Alan
------------------------------
From: Tom St Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: msg for Dave Scott
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 19:27:17 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (JPeschel) wrote:
> Tom St Denis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> >Sorry about that but really I have never seen it in any programs. Ok let me
> >rephrase if I give you
> >
> >bfaqaaa2q2IpYXBMmmaaaauaaaaqF43{QqmvUThKIkZ7aa65z
> >
> >will you be able to read it faster then say brute force?
>
> Not a message, that short, as Gwyn explained to you.
Hmm really ...
is this enough?
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6S5aa
Is this enough?
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cnVNJoRO5{VkPt}rW6{{3scxia}74M2NllQE4bemjMKQBUGFlPeC5}lXlgmopQ4Z0WZv
C}U}eXJVZfSXnEz{Q4JXmQ7GOds{D3pqCMiqtRl59RL1goeVYBeY6t50FlIOjN6XKQRe
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E}DxxbY6ZIuzk
My point is modern cryptosystem for sending private messages (like pgp and
peekboo) will not send more then say 1kb avg. of data.... So.... is there
another way other then brute force? Most likely not. I think I made my
point.
Tom
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Mok-Kong Shen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Q: Burrows-Wheeler transform
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:40:30 +0200
While compression is, as far as I am aware, generally regarded
as orthogonal to encryption, it is nontheless an aid to information
security, I suppose. Recently I read somewhere a claim that the
Burrows-Wheeler transform is a better compression technique than
Huffman or arithmetic encoding. Could some person having knowledge
and experience with that say whether this is true and whether the
advantage passes on to encryption? (Could it be that it is slower?)
Thanks in advance.
M. K. Shen
======================
http://home.t-online.de/home/mok-kong.shen
------------------------------
From: Mok-Kong Shen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Q: Burrows-Wheeler transform
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:24:13 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> coder give a compression algorithm. Simple first-order modeling
> followed by arithmetic coding is not very good. High-order modeling
> with blending followed by arithmetic coding is the best compression
> known (algorithms such as PPMD or PPMZ).
Thanks a lot. I haven't heard of PPM* schemes before. Could you please
give some literature references?
M. K. Shen
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (T.P Harte)
Subject: Irish schoolgirl wins European Young Scientist Award
Date: 29 Sep 1999 19:58:03 GMT
Did anyone read the news that the schoolgirl who came up with
an algorithm as secure as RSA but faster---or something supposedly
similar---won the European Young Scientist of the Year award?
I remember that there were several threads on this issue when it first hit the
news circa last January, but I lost track....
What was the outcome of all this? Presumably the algorithm was shown to be
bona fide...or rather hasn't been shown to be readily crackable yet?
------------------------------
Reply-To: "karl malbrain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "karl malbrain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: talk.politics.crypto
Subject: Re: EAR Relaxed? Really?
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 13:39:57 -0700
Greg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:7sto28$hcd$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > Judge: *I* interpret the law, you are supposed to *execute*
> > the law (and the legislature, Constitution, and English
> > Common Law *make* the law). Sit down and shaddup.
>
> Okay, so you want the judge to ignore the law play activist
> judge in this scenario? I can play along. Let's get real-
> reality, that is:
(...) snipped as too close to call.
You are CORRECT!!! Do you have a position to move from???? Karl M
------------------------------
From: Paul Koning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: RSA Variation
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 15:32:54 -0400
Gary Partis wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> We have inherited a sub-set of RSA in an embedded system.
>
> It essentially encrypts and decrypts using the exponentiation function
> only.
What does it leave out? The modulo part???
I wonder if it's an RSA subset, or not an encryption at all...
paul
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JPeschel)
Subject: Re: msg for Dave Scott
Date: 29 Sep 1999 20:34:12 GMT
Tom St Denis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes a lot of nonsense:
>Hmm really ...
>
>is this enough?
>bfaqaaqOHu1L41h5zEeaaauaaaaaJaKuTMxRkzZoUhlS9q5NPOCWQNfBZ
etc.
Just what is your problem?
Read the FAQ about posting challenges.
Joe
__________________________________________
Joe Peschel
D.O.E. SysWorks
http://members.aol.com/jpeschel/index.htm
__________________________________________
------------------------------
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