Cryptography-Digest Digest #882, Volume #13 Tue, 13 Mar 01 10:13:00 EST
Contents:
Re: One-time Pad really unbreakable? (Tim Tyler)
Re: GPS and cryptography (br)
Re: GPS and cryptography (Paul Schlyter)
Re: Text of Applied Cryptography .. do not feed the trolls (Paul Schlyter)
Re: GPS and cryptography ("Trevor L. Jackson, III")
Re: An extremely difficult (possibly original) cryptogram ("Trevor L. Jackson, III")
Re: One-time Pad really unbreakable? (Tim Tyler)
Re: GPS and cryptography ("Tom St Denis")
2nd announcement for ECC 2001 (Alfred John Menezes)
Re: One-time Pad really unbreakable? (Tim Tyler)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: One-time Pad really unbreakable?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:00:30 GMT
Dave Knapp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:59:32 GMT, Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>Douglas A. Gwyn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>: In contrast, the irreducible nature of quantum randomness has been well
:>: established by experiment and theory. It's not due merely a lack of
:>: more detailed knowledge of the state of the system.
:>
:>Yet there are deterministic theories of how the world operates, which
:>appear to be quite consistent with observation:
:>
:>http://www.anthropic-principle.com/preprints/manyworlds.html
:>
:>Q13 Is many-worlds a deterministic theory?
:> Yes, many-worlds is a deterministic theory [...]
:>
:>A deterministic theory has no place for randomness.
: Wrong. Thanks for playing, though. The many-worlds hypothesis (it
: isn't a theory yet) is deterministic, but it is unable to predict the
: results of a single observation, since the worldline in which the
: observation will be made is unpredictable.
Actually many worlds does make concrete predictions if the initial state
is completely known. That's a consequence of its determinism.
Consequently, DAG's statement that: "It's not due merely a lack of
more detailed knowledge of the state of the system" is mistaken - if
sufficiently detailed knowledge of the state of the system were
available, prediction would be possible.
The problem is that an embodied observer does not appear to have any way
to obtain information about the entire state of the system.
--
__________ http://alife.co.uk/ http://mandala.co.uk/
|im |yler [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hex.org.uk/ http://atoms.org.uk/
------------------------------
From: br <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPS and cryptography
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:18:50 -0400
My idea is that GPS as device is connected to the computer. It's
hardware encryption.
If you have a position x then you can read the message which is
encrypted whith any cryptosystem E(k). If you are in other location you
can't read the message even if you know the key K.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul Schlyter)
Subject: Re: GPS and cryptography
Date: 13 Mar 2001 14:11:43 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
ObiTwo <spam bait:
[EMAIL PROTECTED];root@localhost;abuse@localhost;[EMAIL PROTECTED];[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:02:29 -0400, br <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> What do you think about using Global Positionning System (GPS) as key to
>> encryption?
>> You can read a message only if your computer is a pre-defined area or
>> point in the earth.
>> I'm waiting for comments
>
> This is not about the original subject of the thread, but about a
> lateral thinking: isn't the data stream from a GPS satellite a
> pseudorandom sequence of bits? If I remember correctly, it is so. In
> this case, couldn't one use it as the source of pseudorandom bits for
> Rabin's latest "unbreakable" cryptographic scheme? Of course, one
> would have to trust that the sequence is really pseudorandom, which as
> far as I understand cannot be demonstrated from the sequence alone.
Then you're left with a key distribution problem: how can you make sure
the receiver uses exactly the same bitstream as you do?
--
================================================================
Paul Schlyter, Swedish Amateur Astronomer's Society (SAAF)
Grev Turegatan 40, S-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at saaf dot se or paul.schlyter at ausys dot se
WWW: http://hotel04.ausys.se/pausch http://welcome.to/pausch
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul Schlyter)
Subject: Re: Text of Applied Cryptography .. do not feed the trolls
Date: 13 Mar 2001 14:11:19 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Paul Rubin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul Schlyter) writes:
>> In particular since paper can be resued too! Books, newspapers, etc
>> which are thrown away can be recycled into paper used for printing
>> new books/papers.
>
> Yes, and paper recycling uses a lot of energy, plus creates a lot of
> incredibly nasty pollution.
>
> Bits good, paper bad.
Unfortunately you cannot read bits directly -- you must somehow
store, transport and display them. All that requires energy -- and
the energy to produce and run your personal computer isn't all -- you
must also include the energy to run the infrastructure (e.g. the
Internet) you're using.
New trees grow by themselves -- new copper, plastic and glass doesn't....
--
================================================================
Paul Schlyter, Swedish Amateur Astronomer's Society (SAAF)
Grev Turegatan 40, S-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at saaf dot se or paul.schlyter at ausys dot se
WWW: http://hotel04.ausys.se/pausch http://welcome.to/pausch
------------------------------
From: "Trevor L. Jackson, III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPS and cryptography
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:29:37 GMT
br wrote:
> It's impossible.
It's trivial.
The hardest case is when the GPS receiver and the decryption engine are the same
device. All an eavesdropper has to do is fake the GPS signals for the desired
position.
The typical case is when the GPS receiver is is one device that communicates
with the decryption device. All an eavesdropper has to do is feed a fake
message to the decryption device as if it came from the GPS receiver.
>
> Tom St Denis wrote:
> >
> > "br" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > What do you think about using Global Positionning System (GPS) as key to
> > > encryption?
> > > You can read a message only if your computer is a pre-defined area or
> > > point in the earth.
> > > I'm waiting for comments
> >
> > What if I fake my position?
------------------------------
From: "Trevor L. Jackson, III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: rec.puzzles
Subject: Re: An extremely difficult (possibly original) cryptogram
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:33:53 GMT
David Schwartz wrote:
> daniel mcgrath wrote:
> >
> > Tysoizbyjoxs, this may be the most complicated code anyone has ever
> > done!
> >
> [snip]
> > I do want to see some comment, even if you are totally lost, as no
> > doubt quite a few of you are.
>
> I'll make a deal with. I'll decrypt your message if you can decrypt
> mine.
>
> The ciphertext is:
>
> X
>
> To make it easier, I'll give you an example ciphertext and plaintext
> using the same cipher _and_ the same key.
>
> Ciphertext:
>
> Y
>
> Plaintext:
>
> Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their party.
>
> Good luck.
>
> DS
Hey, you used his ciphertext as the key to your messages. How sly!
;-)
------------------------------
From: Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: One-time Pad really unbreakable?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:21:57 GMT
Douglas A. Gwyn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Tim Tyler wrote:
:> Douglas A. Gwyn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:> : In contrast, the irreducible nature of quantum randomness has been well
:> : established by experiment and theory. It's not due merely a lack of
:> : more detailed knowledge of the state of the system.
:> Yet there are deterministic theories of how the world operates, ...
:> ...
:> Yes, many-worlds is a deterministic theory [...]
:> A deterministic theory has no place for randomness.
: "Deterministic" has a technical meaning which is not an exact
: antonym of "random".
: The consequences of many-worlds theory are identical to those
: from conventional quantum theory, and as such it doesn't help.
I think this depends on your definition of "conventional".
I believe MW does not make the same predictions as the CI, in extreme
cases, in particular in MW a superposition of two observers is possible,
while presumably in CI the observers would decohere through observation.
Since "observers" are generally rather large, it may be difficult to
detect this difference between the theories in practice.
I agree with the spirit of what you said though - but rather than saying
it doesn't help, I would say that it indicates that the conventional
theory is equally deterministic, despite the trappings of randomness.
: ("Many" is a misnomer since it is a nondenumerable infinity.)
I don't believe the size of "many" is known. I would certainly say that
it is not known to be infinite - since no infinities are known to exist
in nature.
:> Anyway, regardless of whether quantum events tap into fundamentally
:> unpredictable phenomena or not the question of how to get an
:> unguessable shared stream to both parties while ensuring that
:> nobody else can predict the information remains.
:> This problem is to do with macroscale devices, couriers, whether
:> your component suppliers can be trusted, whether the state of your
:> randomness detector is being remotely monitored, and so on.
: Note that Rabin and I have recently proposed methods for doing
: this without requiring a separate trusted channel.
You can get an "unguessable shared stream to both parties while ensuring
that nobody else can predict the information"...?
Give it a rest. You'll be telling me you have the original holy grail next.
:> Quantum theory doesn't come into this discussion - it's a bit of a
:> red herring, really.
: It comes into the discussion to the extent that it provides a
: fundamentally unpredictable source of randomness that can be
: exploited in practical devices to generate random bits in a
: manner that we are confident the enemy cannot cryptanalyze.
Well, according you, yes. What if the enemy succeeds in replacing your
radioactive source with a radio-controlled device of their own
manufacture? What if the replace your Geiger counter with a
suitably-modified PRNG? Quantum theory is not the answer to getting
a random source that you can rely on completely.
--
__________ http://alife.co.uk/ http://mandala.co.uk/
|im |yler [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hex.org.uk/ http://atoms.org.uk/
------------------------------
From: "Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPS and cryptography
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:40:36 GMT
"br" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> It's impossible.
How so? Why can't I just fake the data coming into the machine?
Tom
>
>
> Tom St Denis wrote:
> >
> > "br" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > What do you think about using Global Positionning System (GPS) as key
to
> > > encryption?
> > > You can read a message only if your computer is a pre-defined area or
> > > point in the earth.
> > > I'm waiting for comments
> >
> > What if I fake my position?
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alfred John Menezes)
Subject: 2nd announcement for ECC 2001
Date: 13 Mar 2001 14:11:28 GMT
========================================================================
THE 5TH WORKSHOP ON ELLIPTIC CURVE CRYPTOGRAPHY (ECC 2001)
University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Canada
September 17, 18 & 19 2001
Second Announcement March 13, 2001
ECC 2001 is the fifth in a series of annual workshops dedicated to the
study of elliptic curve cryptography and related areas. The main themes
of ECC 2001 will be:
- The discrete logarithm and elliptic curve discrete logarithm problems.
- Provably secure discrete log-based cryptographic protocols for
encryption, signatures and key agreement.
- Efficient software and hardware implementation of elliptic curve
cryptosystems.
- Deployment of elliptic curve cryptography.
It is hoped that the meeting will encourage and stimulate further
research on the security and implementation of elliptic curve
cryptosystems and related areas, and encourage collaboration between
mathematicians, computer scientists and engineers in the academic,
industry and government sectors.
There will be approximately 15 invited lectures (and no contributed
talks), with the remaining time used for informal discussions. There
will be both survey lectures as well as lectures on latest research
developments.
SPONSORS:
Certicom Corp.
Communications and Information Technology Ontario
MasterCard International
MITACS
Mondex International Limited
University of Waterloo
ORGANIZERS:
Alfred Menezes (Certicom Corp.)
Edlyn Teske (University of Waterloo)
Scott Vanstone (University of Waterloo)
CONFIRMED SPEAKERS:
Dan Bankerson* (Auburn University, USA)
Dan Bernstein (University of Illinois Chicago, USA)
Dan Bleichenbacher (Lucent Technologies, USA)
Dan Boneh (Stanford University, USA)
Dan Brown (Certicom Corp., Canada)
Gerhard Frey (University of Essen, Germany)
Pierrick Gaudry (Ecole Polytechnique, France)
Ueli Maurer (ETH, Switzerland)
Alfred Menezes (Certicom Corp., Canada)
Tatsuaki Okamoto (NTT, Japan)
Jean Marc Robert (Gemplus, Canada)
Victor Shoup (IBM, Switzerland)
Alice Silverberg (Ohio State University, USA)
Brian Snow (National Security Agency, USA)
Jerome Solinas (National Security Agency, USA)
Annegret Weng (University of Essen, Germany)
(* apologies to Darrel Hankerson)
CONFERENCE PROGRAM
A list of lecture titles will be made available in the third
announcement, which will be mailed on May 15, 2001.
REGISTRATION
There will be a registration fee this year of $300 Cdn or $200 US
($150 Cdn or $100 US for full-time graduate students). PLEASE REGISTER
AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AS SPACE IS LIMITED FOR THIS WORKSHOP; REGISTRATION
IS ON A FIRST-COME FIRST-SERVE BASIS. We cannot process a registration
until all fees are paid in full. The deadline for all fees to be
paid and registration completed has been set for the 3rd of
September, 2001. To register, complete, in full, the attached
REGISTRATION FORM and return it along with your payment to:
Mrs. Frances Hannigan, C&O Dept., University of Waterloo, Waterloo,
Ontario, Canada N2L 3G1. Confirmation of your registration will be
sent by email when payment is received in full.
========================cut from here=================================
ECC 2001 CONFERENCE REGISTRATION FORM
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=========================cut from here===============================
TRAVEL
Kitchener-Waterloo is approximately 100km/60miles from Pearson
International Airport in Toronto. Ground transportation to
Kitchener-Waterloo can be pre-arranged with Airways Transit.
TRANSPORTATION TO AND FROM TORONTO AIRPORT PROVIDED BY AIRWAYS TRANSIT
It is advisable to book your transportation between the Pearson Airport,
Toronto, and Waterloo in advance to receive the advance booking rate of
$52 CAD per person, one way, with Airways Transit (open 24 hours a day).
This is a door-to-door service; they accept cash (Cdn or US funds),
MasterCard, Visa and American Express.
Upon arrival:
Terminal 1: proceed to Ground Transportation Booth, Arrivals Level,
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Terminal 3: proceed to Ground Transportation Booth, Arrivals Level,
under domestic area escalators.
Complete the form below and send by mail or fax well in advance of your
arrival to Airways Transit. They will not fax confirmations: your fax
transmission record is confirmation of your reservation.
=========================cut from here=================================
AIRWAYS TRANSIT ADVANCE BOOKING FORM - ECC 2001
ARRIVAL INFORMATION:
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Send or Fax to:
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Canada, N2V 1Y8
Fax: (519) 886-2141
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=============================cut form here================================
ACCOMMODATIONS
There is a limited block of rooms set aside on a first-come first-serve
basis at the Waterloo Inn and the Comfort Inn for the evenings of
September 15, 16, 17 and 18. Please make your reservations prior
to August 5, 2001, directly with the hotel.
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- $84 Cdn plus taxes/night for a single or double room
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- please quote "ECC 2001 Conference" when making your reservation.
Other hotels close to the University of Waterloo are:
Destination Inn
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Phone: (519) 884-0100
Fax: (519) 746-8638
Approx rate: $77 Cdn plus taxes/night
Best Western
St. Jacobs Country Inn
50 Benjamin Road, East
Waterloo, Ontario
Canada N2V 2J9
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Approx rate: $109-119 Cdn plus taxes/night
The Waterloo Hotel
2-4 King Street North
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Canada N2J 1N8
Phone: (519) 885-2626
Approx rate: $112-130 Cdn plus taxes/night
HOTEL TO CONFERENCE TRANSPORTATION
A shuttle to/from the campus will be available each day of the
conference from the Waterloo Inn only. Place and times for
pickup and drop-off will be provided in the third announcement.
For further information or to return your Registration, please contact:
Mrs. Frances Hannigan
Department of Combinatorics & Optimization
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2L 3G1
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Phone: (519) 888-4027
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added to the mailing list for the third announcement, please send email
to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The announcements are also available
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========================================================================
------------------------------
From: Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: One-time Pad really unbreakable?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:46:40 GMT
Douglas A. Gwyn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Tim Tyler wrote:
:> I believe you are mistaken here. As I understand it, the theory is
:> consistent with sub-atomic physics being random - but it is also
:> completely consistent with it being based on deterministic rules.
: Determinism can still involve random processes.
Not very easily. Determinism results in predictabile, repeatable
phenomena. These are the antithesis of randomness.
: The key point to realize is that the source of *quantum* randomness has
: properties that are demonstrably different from conventional
: sources of randomness; it cannot be attributed to lack of
: sufficiently detailed knowledge of the state of the generator.
...but that is exactly what it appears to be attributable to. If the
entire state were known the future evolution would be predicatble to an
entity with the rules governing the evolution to hand, and sufficient
resources.
The problem I think you're tring to get at is that it is difficult for an
embodied observer to get reliable and complete information about the
system in the first place.
If getting such information were actually impossible (as Schroedinger's
work would suggest) then prediction might well be difficult in practice.
I know of no method of getting complete information about the state of
the systems in question - but I don't know a lot of things.
Ignorance about all the rules of the system does not entitle one to make
statements that some task is impossible for the system to perform.
--
__________
|im |yler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home page: http://alife.co.uk/tim/
------------------------------
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