Cryptography-Digest Digest #23, Volume #14 Tue, 27 Mar 01 14:13:00 EST
Contents:
Re: ECC conversion to Weierstrass form (Doug Kuhlman)
Re: compression ratio as a predicter of cipher strength (SCOTT19U.ZIP_GUY)
Re: Potential of machine translation techniques? (Richard Herring)
Re: Malicious Javascript in Brent Kohler post ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: The creation of the DES s-boxes - thanks (Frank Gerlach)
Re: The creation of the DES s-boxes - thanks (Frank Gerlach)
Re: Malicious Javascript in Brent Kohler post (Mok-Kong Shen)
Re: Kill-file entries for TRN to nuke the weenie! (was Re: Kill-filter expression
for script weenie) ("Paul Pires")
Re: Idea - (LONG) (Erwann ABALEA)
Re: The creation of the DES s-boxes - thanks (DJohn37050)
Re: Kill-file entries for TRN to nuke the weenie! (was Re: Kill-filter (Mok-Kong
Shen)
Re: The creation of the DES s-boxes - thanks (Mok-Kong Shen)
Re: Kill-file entries for TRN to nuke the weenie! (was Re: Kill-filter expression
for script weenie) (Ben Cantrick)
Re: Idea - (LONG) (Bertrand)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Doug Kuhlman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: sci.math
Subject: Re: ECC conversion to Weierstrass form
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:56:38 -0600
Guy-Armand Kamendje wrote:
>
> given a curve C: y^2=ax^4+bx^3+cx^2+dx+e,
> someone told me that one could just pick any point lying on this curve
> as the origin and convert the quartic to an elliptic curve in
> Weierstrass form. I have found a formula somewhere for the case that the
> point P=(0,0) lies on the curve. Is there any general formula for any
> given point let's say Q=(i,j) liying on the curve?
> thanks for any hint
Try the curve C' : (y-j)^2=a(x-i)^4 + ...
and then the formula for (0,0) on the curve.
Doug
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (SCOTT19U.ZIP_GUY)
Subject: Re: compression ratio as a predicter of cipher strength
Date: 27 Mar 2001 17:07:12 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Curtis Williams) wrote in
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Thanks to everyone who responded. I'll steer clear of this snakeoil
>:-)
I think that the words he used may not be totally indicative of
Snake Oil. The auther could have assumed certain things at the
time of writting. I choose to use things that offend purest all the
time just becasue I feel like it.
The auther should have said that if an ecnryption product is
designed to produce random code that is not compressible. If it
compresses that its not strong. But again these are just words you
really have to look at source code to see what product is doing.
Granted by most view points and assumptions the auther worded
it wrong. But the statement "compression ratio is a predictor
of cipher strength" is not in islotation a totally wrong statement
its needs to be qualifed.
When it comes to encryption you can't judge the package by the
words that surround it. Though I feel most casual users and so
called experts do judge it by the PR instead of looking at the
code. Example David Wagner said scott19u was mince meat to his
slide attack. He based this on pure speculation. He lied. When
people tried to do the slide attack they could not. He later
admitted he realy did not know what I did. But this is common
the so called experts try to keep the field closed. So the
product where the indivduall wrote this message may have a good
one or bad one. Most will never know. Since even what the phony
crypto gods will pronounce it bad. They usually do so by rectal
retrival and hope no one important catches them at there lies.
They feel safe since in reality most contrived systems may be
bad. But they want to keep the real good ones hidden from the
public.
>
>On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:44:33 GMT, "Curtis Williams"
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>> An encryption product claims that a ciphertext file should be
>> compressed
>>and the compression ration is a predictor of cipher strength (i.e.
>>encrypt a file then zip it. if the compression ratio is 0, the
>>encryption is strong). Is this valid or snakeoil?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>
David A. Scott
--
SCOTT19U.ZIP NOW AVAILABLE WORLD WIDE
http://www.jim.com/jamesd/Kong/scott19u.zip
Scott famous encryption website **now all allowed**
http://members.xoom.com/ecil/index.htm
Scott LATEST UPDATED source for scott*u.zip
http://radiusnet.net/crypto/ then look for
sub directory scott after pressing CRYPTO
Scott famous Compression Page
http://members.xoom.com/ecil/compress.htm
**NOTE EMAIL address is for SPAMERS***
I leave you with this final thought from President Bill Clinton:
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Richard Herring)
Subject: Re: Potential of machine translation techniques?
Date: 27 Mar 2001 17:12:45 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Douglas A. Gwyn ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> "SCOTT19U.ZIP_GUY" wrote:
> > maybe in germany though they would reather get flowers. Or
> > does flower ( Blume I guess) have other connotations ...
> In many crossword puzzles, a flower of England turns out
> to be Avon or Thames.
That's when it isn't being an English banker.
--
Richard Herring | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Malicious Javascript in Brent Kohler post
Date: 27 Mar 2001 12:29:21 -0500
Mok-Kong Shen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> how can I check that it is safe
> to open it? I copied it with the right mouse key to a file,
> but it appears that there are not only stuffs form the mailer
> that need be removed but also extra sequences like '=0A=' etc.
> which need to be deleted/corrected. In other words, without
> the proper correction the material copied doesn't even form a
> valid Javascript. Could someone please help? Thanks in advance.
It sounds like quoted printable. Instead of MIME many use quoted
printable to handle non-ascii items. They are encoded as
"=hex" where hex is the two digit hex code (one could code
text that way, too, e.g. "=41" for "A"). Also, to allow one
to have long lines (very long lines) even through mail systems
which cannot support them, an "=" sign at the end of a line
indicates that the line should be "unbroken" when removing
quoted printable coding. How to send an equals sign, though?
IF one sent "x=41" it would come out "xA" since "=41" is quoted
printable coding. So, to send an equals sign one uses
quoted printable with 3D the hex code for "=" one sends
"x=3D41" to get "x=41" (you'll see a lot of "=3D"s since
there are many equals signs in HTML for setting attribute
variable, eg. "HREF=3D"thissite.com" in qouted printable).
For example:
This i=
s the =41=
BCs in
quoted printable x=3D=
41.
is really:
This is the ABCs in
quoted printable x=41.
(equals signs at the ends to "unbreak" lines,
"A" sent as "=41", etc.).
There are programmes which can just decode quoted printable,
for example, on my Linux box I have "mimencode" which, with
the "-u" (decode instead of encode) and "-q" (quoted printable
instead of MIME) flags can decode it automatically.
The header of the message should have an encoding line indicating
that it is encoded as quoted printable.
------------------------------
From: Frank Gerlach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The creation of the DES s-boxes - thanks
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:46:13 +0200
Yaniv Sapir wrote:
> Thanks, guys.
>
> From the answers and the readings I learn that there is probably no
> (unclassified) answer to my question. So, although this doesn't help in the
> implementation process, this knowing is better than nothing!
This is not the ultimate oracle of wisdom - check the next university library
and the internet. Also, check the literature references of Schneier.
Actually, I do not think a lot of *professional cryptologists* are around...
>
>
> Cheers,
> Yaniv.
>
> Yaniv Sapir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Hi all.
> >
> > A few days ago I asked the NG for details on the values selection in the
> > S-boxes of the DES (DEA). What I'm looking for is an analytic way for
> > determining these values in the 8 S-boxes defined in the standard.
> >
> > Following the answers I received (which were of not enough help), I went
> to
> > the library and searched a few books. All the texts refer to the S-boxes
> as
> > given, listing their tables. At most, the requirements from these were
> given
> > (such as non-linearity, change of at least 2 bits of output for 1 input
> bit
> > change, etc.).
> >
> > Then I talked to Eli Biham (I'm from Israel, so it was easy...), who again
> > insisted on the look-up method for implementation. But he also mentioned
> > that for the standard, they checked around 15M possibilities and chose the
> > best one they had.
> >
> > I also tried forming the boolean functions for each bit of S0, as a
> function
> > of the six input bits, to see if anything can be learned from that, but
> came
> > out with nothing.
> >
> > Now, I can guess that LUT's are the easiest method. But I'm pretty sure
> that
> > it was not just the blind check of all possibilities of numbers, but
> rather
> > a reduced set of possibilities coming from some sort of calculation. And
> > this is what I'm looking for - how these numbers were calculated/chosen
> for
> > this standard!
> >
> > So, if anybody has an answer, or can point me to a reference, this will be
> > most appreciated.
> >
> > TIA,
> > Yaniv.
> >
> >
> >
------------------------------
From: Frank Gerlach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The creation of the DES s-boxes - thanks
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:47:08 +0200
Frank Gerlach wrote:
> Yaniv Sapir wrote:
>
> > Thanks, guys.
> >
> > From the answers and the readings I learn that there is probably no
> > (unclassified) answer to my question. So, although this doesn't help in the
> > implementation process, this knowing is better than nothing!
>
> This is not the ultimate oracle of wisdom - check the next university library
> and the internet. Also, check the literature references of Schneier.
> Actually, I do not think a lot of *professional cryptologists* are around...
And no, I am only an educated amateur.
>
>
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Yaniv.
> >
> > Yaniv Sapir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Hi all.
> > >
> > > A few days ago I asked the NG for details on the values selection in the
> > > S-boxes of the DES (DEA). What I'm looking for is an analytic way for
> > > determining these values in the 8 S-boxes defined in the standard.
> > >
> > > Following the answers I received (which were of not enough help), I went
> > to
> > > the library and searched a few books. All the texts refer to the S-boxes
> > as
> > > given, listing their tables. At most, the requirements from these were
> > given
> > > (such as non-linearity, change of at least 2 bits of output for 1 input
> > bit
> > > change, etc.).
> > >
> > > Then I talked to Eli Biham (I'm from Israel, so it was easy...), who again
> > > insisted on the look-up method for implementation. But he also mentioned
> > > that for the standard, they checked around 15M possibilities and chose the
> > > best one they had.
> > >
> > > I also tried forming the boolean functions for each bit of S0, as a
> > function
> > > of the six input bits, to see if anything can be learned from that, but
> > came
> > > out with nothing.
> > >
> > > Now, I can guess that LUT's are the easiest method. But I'm pretty sure
> > that
> > > it was not just the blind check of all possibilities of numbers, but
> > rather
> > > a reduced set of possibilities coming from some sort of calculation. And
> > > this is what I'm looking for - how these numbers were calculated/chosen
> > for
> > > this standard!
> > >
> > > So, if anybody has an answer, or can point me to a reference, this will be
> > > most appreciated.
> > >
> > > TIA,
> > > Yaniv.
> > >
> > >
> > >
------------------------------
From: Mok-Kong Shen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Malicious Javascript in Brent Kohler post
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:53:23 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Mok-Kong Shen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > how can I check that it is safe
> > to open it? I copied it with the right mouse key to a file,
> > but it appears that there are not only stuffs form the mailer
> > that need be removed but also extra sequences like '=0A=' etc.
> > which need to be deleted/corrected. In other words, without
> > the proper correction the material copied doesn't even form a
> > valid Javascript. Could someone please help? Thanks in advance.
>
> It sounds like quoted printable. Instead of MIME many use quoted
> printable to handle non-ascii items. They are encoded as
> "=hex" where hex is the two digit hex code (one could code
> text that way, too, e.g. "=41" for "A"). Also, to allow one
> to have long lines (very long lines) even through mail systems
> which cannot support them, an "=" sign at the end of a line
> indicates that the line should be "unbroken" when removing
> quoted printable coding. How to send an equals sign, though?
>
> IF one sent "x=41" it would come out "xA" since "=41" is quoted
> printable coding. So, to send an equals sign one uses
> quoted printable with 3D the hex code for "=" one sends
> "x=3D41" to get "x=41" (you'll see a lot of "=3D"s since
> there are many equals signs in HTML for setting attribute
> variable, eg. "HREF=3D"thissite.com" in qouted printable).
>
> For example:
>
> This i=
> s the =41=
> BCs in
> quoted printable x=3D=
> 41.
>
> is really:
>
> This is the ABCs in
> quoted printable x=41.
>
> (equals signs at the ends to "unbreak" lines,
> "A" sent as "=41", etc.).
>
> There are programmes which can just decode quoted printable,
> for example, on my Linux box I have "mimencode" which, with
> the "-u" (decode instead of encode) and "-q" (quoted printable
> instead of MIME) flags can decode it automatically.
>
> The header of the message should have an encoding line indicating
> that it is encoded as quoted printable.
Yes. I have managed in the mean time to edit the file into
a correct runnable form. If the file were sent in 7-bit
encoding, the problem would not have arisen.
Another very dumb question: Do I need to carefully examine
a Javascript or is there any convenient way of assuring
that it doesn't do anything weird? Thanks.
M. K. Shen
------------------------------
From: "Paul Pires" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.security.pgp
Subject: Re: Kill-file entries for TRN to nuke the weenie! (was Re: Kill-filter
expression for script weenie)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:02:52 -0800
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> I can't figure out how to use it! :(
What are you useing for a news reader?
The place to do it and the way varies.
give a few clues and someone might help.
Paul
------------------------------
From: Erwann ABALEA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Idea - (LONG)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 20:10:24 +0200
Right now, you still haven't proved that you could be trusted as a good
cryptographer. Therefore, your criticism about my ignorance in
cryptography is of no value...
But that doesn't matter. After all, it's just talk, isn't it? Please read
on.
I was not talking about your talents as a cryptographer.
I was only talking about your attitude against advices given by people
that are known to be knowledgeable at cryptography. Your only answer is a
proposed challenge to break your poor algorithm. You still don't seem to
understand that even breaking something weak requires some effort, which
at a simple human level can be too much, considered the price paid to do
the work (a free challenge is not very interesting).
If your cryptosystem should only prevent your sister from getting your
love letters, then it's OK, your algorithm might be good enough. But
designing a cryptosystem that could be able to resist to attacks from
motivated attackers (that means with a lot of money, and a lot of
motivated people) needs some real hard work, counted in months or years of
work. But the design of such a cryptosystem can only be engaged after some
years of cryptanalysis and working with already known cryptosystems.
So try to break some known-to-be-breakable cryptosystems, publish your
work so your reputation could be established, and then your *assumptions*
about the strength of a cryptosystem could be considered of value.
But right now, you're designing your system, you only have a vague idea of
what it's strength is (what is the order of operations or memory needed to
break your system with a 12 bits key (you said it's "hard"... a 12 bits
keyspace covers only 4096 different elements, the brute force attack is
trivial to deal with) or more?), so *YOU* have to prove your system is
strong. And such a *proof* can only come from heavy math work...
You've been given some advices to help you build such a proof (either a
proof that it's really strong or not), and your only answer is "hey, just
crack it!". That's a kid behaviour.
If you don't understand the answers given to you, say so.
If you think people didn't understand your system, and the advices are not
relevant enough, then enhance your communication level, and try to post
either:
- a clear and precise formal description of your algorithm (in english,
since that's the language of choice to reach the most people on the
Internet).
- a C source code that could be easily compiled on any Unix workstation,
and a set of test vectors to compare the results obtained by the guys
cool enough to try your code with the reference ones (yours). Please
provide useful comments in your source code, that may prevent some
future questions.
I'm no cryptanalyst but I'm interested in cryptography since several
years, I often read books and practice at home, I use cryptography in my
everyday work (I work for a VeriSign affiliate in Europe, in the R&D lab),
I often talk with very good cryptographers (some of them are very kind
people, and well known).
Therefore I can't say I'll break your cryptosystem. But I'd like to try,
even with my really short free time. I'm a software developer at first, so
my preferred approach would be to compile a C code, run it to get some
results, and work on them... The result (or non-result) of my work is of
no value for the few very talented people, but we both are still not
playing in the same playfield as them.
I repeat, be humble.
Thanks for having read so far.
On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Bertrand wrote:
> Who has spoken about "perfect cipher"????????????????
> I talked about ideal substitution cipher.
> You seems to ignore your ignorance.
>
> Erwann ABALEA wrote:
> >
> > Do you also think that someone needs to prove you that the Earth is round
> > as an orange before you might consider that's true?
> >
> > Read some maths, then read the work of other cryptanalysts, and maybe
> > you'll be able to talk about "perfect cipher" and other bullshit of your
> > own...
> >
> > Be humble, your time might come. Right now, you're deserving yourself
> > because you're not acting as a professional. You're acting as a kid.
> >
> > On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Bertrand wrote:
> >
> > > No more than speech again.
> > > Crack it! that's what I'm waiting for to be convinced.
--
Erwann ABALEA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- RSA PGP Key ID: 0x2D0EABD5 -
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (DJohn37050)
Date: 27 Mar 2001 18:14:49 GMT
Subject: Re: The creation of the DES s-boxes - thanks
That paper is interesting but there is another later one by Don Coppersmith
that I was referring to that (according to Don) gives ALL the security design
criteria of DES.
Don Johnson
------------------------------
From: Mok-Kong Shen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.security.pgp
Subject: Re: Kill-file entries for TRN to nuke the weenie! (was Re: Kill-filter
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 20:16:44 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I can't figure out how to use it! :(
I suppose that all that has been described is for newsreaders
running in UNIX or like systems. For Windows, the Netscape
newsreader has a filter with a sequence of entries for the
filtering criteria.
M. K. Shen
------------------------------
From: Mok-Kong Shen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The creation of the DES s-boxes - thanks
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 20:24:37 +0200
DJohn37050 wrote:
>
> That paper is interesting but there is another later one by Don Coppersmith
> that I was referring to that (according to Don) gives ALL the security design
> criteria of DES.
I should appreciate obtaining a pointer to that paper,
if someone happens to have it at hand.
M. K. Shen
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ben Cantrick)
Crossposted-To: alt.security.pgp
Subject: Re: Kill-file entries for TRN to nuke the weenie! (was Re: Kill-filter
expression for script weenie)
Date: 27 Mar 2001 11:26:36 -0700
In article <1C4w6.220$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Paul Pires <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> I can't figure out how to use it! :(
>
>What are you useing for a news reader?
>The place to do it and the way varies.
>give a few clues and someone might help.
His X-Newsreader line claims he's using Agent.
-Ben
--
Ben Cantrick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) | Yes, the AnimEigo BGC dubs still suck.
BGC Nukem: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/bgcnukem.html
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
"Technically, are women's birthday suits considered double-breasted?" -Willie B.
------------------------------
From: Bertrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Idea - (LONG)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:26:17 -0400
What is this "other bullshit"????
Read what you wrote before!!!
I'm just an amateur who has ideas.
Go read the post "idea", "faste and easy", and "crack it" signed by the
same person " br", "amateur" and "bertrand".
Try to read what I had proposed before insulting.
Read it!!!!
And then we can talk.
Erwann ABALEA wrote:
>
> Right now, you still haven't proved that you could be trusted as a good
> cryptographer. Therefore, your criticism about my ignorance in
> cryptography is of no value...
>
> But that doesn't matter. After all, it's just talk, isn't it? Please read
> on.
>
> I was not talking about your talents as a cryptographer.
>
> I was only talking about your attitude against advices given by people
> that are known to be knowledgeable at cryptography. Your only answer is a
> proposed challenge to break your poor algorithm. You still don't seem to
> understand that even breaking something weak requires some effort, which
> at a simple human level can be too much, considered the price paid to do
> the work (a free challenge is not very interesting).
>
> If your cryptosystem should only prevent your sister from getting your
> love letters, then it's OK, your algorithm might be good enough. But
> designing a cryptosystem that could be able to resist to attacks from
> motivated attackers (that means with a lot of money, and a lot of
> motivated people) needs some real hard work, counted in months or years of
> work. But the design of such a cryptosystem can only be engaged after some
> years of cryptanalysis and working with already known cryptosystems.
>
> So try to break some known-to-be-breakable cryptosystems, publish your
> work so your reputation could be established, and then your *assumptions*
> about the strength of a cryptosystem could be considered of value.
>
> But right now, you're designing your system, you only have a vague idea of
> what it's strength is (what is the order of operations or memory needed to
> break your system with a 12 bits key (you said it's "hard"... a 12 bits
> keyspace covers only 4096 different elements, the brute force attack is
> trivial to deal with) or more?), so *YOU* have to prove your system is
> strong. And such a *proof* can only come from heavy math work...
>
> You've been given some advices to help you build such a proof (either a
> proof that it's really strong or not), and your only answer is "hey, just
> crack it!". That's a kid behaviour.
>
> If you don't understand the answers given to you, say so.
> If you think people didn't understand your system, and the advices are not
> relevant enough, then enhance your communication level, and try to post
> either:
> - a clear and precise formal description of your algorithm (in english,
> since that's the language of choice to reach the most people on the
> Internet).
> - a C source code that could be easily compiled on any Unix workstation,
> and a set of test vectors to compare the results obtained by the guys
> cool enough to try your code with the reference ones (yours). Please
> provide useful comments in your source code, that may prevent some
> future questions.
>
> I'm no cryptanalyst but I'm interested in cryptography since several
> years, I often read books and practice at home, I use cryptography in my
> everyday work (I work for a VeriSign affiliate in Europe, in the R&D lab),
> I often talk with very good cryptographers (some of them are very kind
> people, and well known).
> Therefore I can't say I'll break your cryptosystem. But I'd like to try,
> even with my really short free time. I'm a software developer at first, so
> my preferred approach would be to compile a C code, run it to get some
> results, and work on them... The result (or non-result) of my work is of
> no value for the few very talented people, but we both are still not
> playing in the same playfield as them.
>
> I repeat, be humble.
>
> Thanks for having read so far.
>
> On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Bertrand wrote:
>
> > Who has spoken about "perfect cipher"????????????????
> > I talked about ideal substitution cipher.
> > You seems to ignore your ignorance.
> >
> > Erwann ABALEA wrote:
> > >
> > > Do you also think that someone needs to prove you that the Earth is round
> > > as an orange before you might consider that's true?
> > >
> > > Read some maths, then read the work of other cryptanalysts, and maybe
> > > you'll be able to talk about "perfect cipher" and other bullshit of your
> > > own...
> > >
> > > Be humble, your time might come. Right now, you're deserving yourself
> > > because you're not acting as a professional. You're acting as a kid.
> > >
> > > On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Bertrand wrote:
> > >
> > > > No more than speech again.
> > > > Crack it! that's what I'm waiting for to be convinced.
>
> --
> Erwann ABALEA
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - RSA PGP Key ID: 0x2D0EABD5 -
------------------------------
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