# Re: Entropy Definition (was Re: passphrases with more than 160 bits of entropy)

On Sat, Mar 25, 2006 at 07:26:51PM -0500, John Denker wrote:
> Executive summary:  Small samples do not always exhibit "average" behavior.

That's not the whole problem - you have to be looking at the right
"average" too.

For the long run encodability of a set of IID symbols produced with
probability p_i, then that average is the Shannon Entropy.  If
you're interested in the mean number of guesses (per symbol) required
to guess a long word formed from these symbols, then you should be
looking at (\sum_i \sqrt(p_i))^2. Other metrics (min entropy, work
factor, ...) require other "averages".

To see this behaviour, you both need a large sample and the right
type of average to match your problem (and I've assumed IID).

David.

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