I have this album that I am working on , and I am doing it "without"
tables or so I thought.

http://www.jingledaddy.com/notable/index.htm

All I am trying to do is center the image over a small background image
 over a background color ( I don't need it centered on the color).  I
won't have the image dimensions either. In the example Firefox 1.03
horizontally centers the image but does not display the background-color
or center it vertically.

In IE the background color shows up but the image is hugging the top
left corner.

What kind of hoop-jumping must I do to get this to work, hopefully in
both browsers.


simple html **********************************

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>NO table test</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="noframe.css">
</head>
<body leftmargin="0" topmargin="0" >
<div id="outside">

<div class="picFrame">
<img class="insert" src="th_P3300049.jpg" alt="...">
</div>

<div class="picFrame">
<div class="insert">
<img  src="th_P3300049.jpg" alt="...">
</div>
</div>

</div>

</body>
</html>

*******************************************

simple css ********************************

/* CSS Document */

#outside {
        width: 310px;
        background-color: ThreedFace;
        display: block;
}

.picFrame {
        margin: 6;
        padding: 0;
        width: 140px;
        height: 142px;
        background-image: url(BG014.jpg);
        float: left;
        border: 1px solid #ffffff;
        
}


img {
  display: block;
  margin: 0 auto;
  margin-bottom: auto;
  margin-top: auto;

}


.insert {
        margin-left: auto;
        margin-right: auto;
        border: 1px solid #fff;
          }
*************************************


I have done this quite easily with a set of nested tables, but I
thought that this would be easier to maintain.


The Idol

Thanks for all your help in the past


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