Christian - Regarding: http://www.grc.com/menu2/invitro.htm
Thanks for taking the time to explain your views. I appreciate the links and will look into them deeper the first chance I get. I'm not a CSS purist, just someone who's learning and wanting to do what's right. ;) Robert >> > It is a very impressive example of research and a creative idea to get >> > around the MSIE 6 issue but once again it mixes behaviour, >> > presentation and structure to allow for an effect in CSS that could be >> > much easier and more accessible with JavaScript. >> >> The whole point of this menu project was to avoid using JavaScript. > > Now here is my big question: WHY? > > Yes, JavaScript may not be available. But JavaScript can > > - test if it is available, > - pull in styles when and if they are needed, > - test if the menus will fit the screen and pop them up in other > directions where there is space, > - provide keyboard access via the cursor keys (as multi level menus > work in applications), > - allow for delayed showing and hiding to make sure users with bad eye > hand coordination can use the menu > - even allow to pull in the secondary and tertiary levels via Ajax if > needed. > >>Sorry Christian. Given that Internet Explorer is broken, one is then > left with no choice but to mix presentation and structure, and create > code that won't validate. > > No you don't. You have to if you try to shoehorn behaviour into CSS, > which was meant for presentation definition. Seeing hacks like this > makes me wish :hover was never invented. > > I am not saying that this is not an impressive amount of research and > development, I just see it as one that was based on wrong assumptions. > The assumption was that MSIE is "broken" and that CSS is the right > technology for menus. > Instead, the question before the research should be "how should a > multi level menu work, how does it work in other applications and how > can we replicate it with web technologies". And when you test all the > use cases and problems of a menu like this you will soon find out that > CSS is not the technology to use. > > Invalid markup is one thing, but having to add lots of conditional > comments and browser specific markup inside them bloats the HTML > unnecessarily and makes it a nightmare to maintain. Furthermore, users > that have to rely on tabbing or use assistive technology that does not > skip elements with a display attribute of hide willl get EVERY link in > the menu on every page, and will thank you for having to tab through > them all. > > We all wave the finger at old outdated JavaScript that does browser > sniffing and code forkin, yet by avoiding JavaScript we put the code > forking inside the HTML. Same mistake, different playground. > > By using JavaScript for the behaviour, HTML for the structure and CSS > for the look and feel you don't need any extra HTML and your CSS will > be a lot smaller, too. > > Check out James Edward's Menu system and more importantly the chapter > on how it was built in the JavaScript Anthology: > http://www.brothercake.com/site/portfolio/book/ > http://www.brothercake.com/site/products/menu/ > > Then take a look at Sun/Mozillas research in that area: > http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Accessible_DHTML > > By offering a complex menu like this we are crossing the boundary > between web development and application development, and a richer meny > also requires richer navigation options. ______________________________________________________________________ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
