-Caveat Lector-
We have had this before. Multiple personal conversations (expessally from
the same person, on the same thread) without documentation, citations, or
URL's! My answer. Substance--Not soapboxing!
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance�not soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Laura
aka The Pied Piper
PS I hope this is clear enough for you to understand, this time.
-----Original Message-----
From: William Hugh Tunstall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
> -Caveat Lector-
>
>What constitutes "baiting"? While I've subscribed to the list, I've read
>posts attacking Jews, minorities, and "liberals." Plus, all of the vile
>and scurrilous posts about the President and Hillary. In addition, I've
>read posts that have targeted the poor, welfare recipients, and Native
>Americans. Not to mention the many posts attacking feminists or women in
>general. Plus, there are the many strange posts defending slavery.
>
>I have responded to these many attacks in as courteous a manner as
>possible. Barb Witt, who does not share my views on many issues, has
>pointed out that I have tried to be fair and polite to those who I
>disagree with. I don't think I've "baited" anyone. If anything, I have
>been "baited" by the neofascists on the list from the outset with
>snide remarks and ad hominem attacks.
>
>I locked horns with Hawk...only to now be accused of being Hawk in
>disguise!!! Ha ha...go figure! Yes, there is a similarity between the
>two of us... And I do respect the man....even though I disagree with
>everything he believes. I've spent my entire life surrounded by people
>who think like he does....and I think I was making progress towards
>showing him that liberals and people of color also love their
>country...also love their kids...also believe in decency, integrity,
>respect for property...the same things he values....
>
>I'm not a white middle class American. I didn't go to an elitist
>school... My father was an alcoholic, parents divorced when I was
>twelve... I know what it's like to live on the streets and be
>hungry...how many of you can say the same? Have you ever worked at a
>factory? washed dishes to eat? worked in construction?
>...struggled to survive? Old Hawk and I come from the same low
>strata..... We are the people who follow behind your parade with the
>shovels. I understand his sense of betrayal and rage. He's my brother..
>although I disagree with his views.
>
>So...if you dislike my posts...just hit the delete button.
>
>On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Jim Norman wrote:
>
>> -Caveat Lector-
>>
>> May I second the motion. In my opinion, "baiting" took place on both
sides and if one
>> goes, they should all go.
>> Jim norman
>>
>> William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
>>
>> > -Caveat Lector-
>> >
>> > Hawk has informed me that he was removed from the list.
>> > I would like the listowner to reconsider his or her decision.
>> > All of us have been guilty of intemperate remarks from time to time on
>> > this list. (myself included.) I'm on the opposite end of the political
>> > spectrum from the dread bird, and I didn't find his posts that
offensive.
>> > I've read some blatantly anti-semitic stuff that was far more
offensive,
>> > in my opinion, that his posts..
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> > William
>> >
>> > On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
>> >
>> > > -Caveat Lector-
>> > >
>> > > I think you missed my earlier post. I'm not against the idea of
states
>> > > leaving the Union...per se.
>> > >
>> > > In the case of the Civil War, as in most wars, the issues were
confused
>> > > and complex. But I think on the issue of slavery there was no
compromise.
>> > >
>> > > Mr. Davis, what appears to be "logical" or "illogical" depends upon
your
>> > > point of view, the criteria one uses to frame a particular
discussion.
>> > > For example, if you were a white male southerner at the time who
owned
>> > > slaves, you would be interested in protecting your "property," and
you
>> > > would not be too enthusiastic about the Federal government's plan to
>> > > free your slaves. However, for the sake of argument, I was the slave
>> > > owner ...and you were MY slave. You might have a completely
different
>> > > perspective on the issue of what exactly IS property and what ISN'T.
>> > >
>> > > If I decided to take your children from you and sell them to my
neighbor,
>> > > you wouldn't be able to complain, because the law had defined you to
be
>> > > chattel. Or, perhaps,if I decided to enjoy the sexual favors of your
>> > > wife.
>> > > Again, you would have nothing to say in the matter because I would be
the
>> > > absolute lord and master over the Davis family. Your wife, your
children,
>> > > your lives would be held in my tender hands. Now, being a thinking
and
>> > > reasonable person, I just might make a reasonable assumption that YOU
>> > > would object to this state of affairs. In fact, it might not be a
legal
>> > > or logical issue to you...it might be an emotional and intensely
personal
>> > > issue to you, would you agree? Of course, I could trot out my Holy
Book
>> > > and explain to your sorry ass that you are chattel...and I could
explain
>> > > the Constitution to your untutored ears.....and explain the finer
points
>> > > of the noble English Common Law tradition.... It would not surprise
me
>> > > that you might be unimpressed with the wisdom of my philsophy.
Perhaps,
>> > > you might even be emotional about it.
>> > >
>> > > Regards,
>> > > Wm
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Howard R. Davis III wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > -Caveat Lector-
>> > > >
>> > > > William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > -Caveat Lector-
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Davis and the other southern commanders had taken oaths as
soldiers and as
>> > > > > politicians to serve and uphold the Constitution of the United
States.
>> > > > > They were bound by that oath not to work against the best
interests of the
>> > > > > nation.
>> > > >
>> > > > ***
>> > > > Yes, and they understood that the Constitution allowed states to
seceed
>> > > > from the union. They had also taken an oath to their state
govenments
>> > > > which governments preceeded the forming of the union. Lee, for
instance,
>> > > > would have been working against the best interests of his country
>> > > > (Virginia) if he had taken command of the federal forces as had
been
>> > > > offered.
>> > > >
>> > > > ***
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > By taking up arms against their country, they were committing an
>> > > > > act of treason.. Sorry if that offends some of you but that is a
fact.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ****
>> > > > Why should it offend me? I had no ancestor in the war except
perhaps in
>> > > > the federal army. I have lived in the south for many years, but
people
>> > > > still say I don't have an accent. I don't even like football. I
just
>> > > > have studied the history and have tried to understand the situation
at
>> > > > the time on the basis of law. I don't believe that you have. You
are
>> > > > just argueing from an emotional basis and not on any basis of law.
My
>> > > > understanding of law has lead me to believe that the southern
states had
>> > > > the legal right to leave the union and that they did so lawfully.
As I
>> > > > stated, the Supreme Court of the time was probably in agreement
with
>> > > > this position. It was Lincoln and others in the northern states who
>> > > > ignored their oathes to the Constitution. That is my opinion from
>> > > > studying the facts. If you have a rational arguement to disprove my
>> > > > opinion, I am open to being corrected, but what you have provided
so far
>> > > > has not dealt with the issue in anything but a purely emotional
manner.
>> > > >
>> > > > best wishes, Howard Davis
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==========
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance�not soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
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