from: http://members.tripod.com/babcock.chester/interview1/ Click Here: <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/babcock.chester/interview1/">In terviews With Major Jack Downing</A> ----- Here's a small collection of assorted interview excerpts with Major Jack Downing (1933 - 1999?). These were provided to me in 1999 by his former secretary Raheem. [Our first interview is a transcription of a conversation between Raheem and Downing, which took place in 1997] Raheem's preface-- I caught up with Downing after a public event in Manhattan, and we sequestered ourselves in a quiet bar to talk about his experiences. He was at first reticent, but a couple of martinis loosened his tongue. Use your own judgement about the factuality of his statements. RAHEEM: It has been said in some internet forums that you are an active part of the cover-up, having been in PSYOPS and worked with the CIA and NSA. DOWNING: I wish somebody would pose similar questions to goddamn Ed Dames and Strieber whatsisface... RAHEEM: Well...? DOWNING: Let history be the judge. I stand behind my words. I'm sick of being jerked around by the government, my former employer, by the VA hospitals [Downing had cancer in '97 -ed.], and... yet I'm still technically sworn to hold secrecy about some things till the day I die. RAHEEM: Can you comment on the whole Roswell craze? DOWNING: Yeah. It is a damn media circus, nothing more. Nothing extraordinary happened ... an experimental stealth plane went down. The farmer was debriefed, the media got hold of it, and we had to contrive a story to keep details of the crash from the Russians ... it was (at) the start of the Cold War, if you'll recall. RAHEEM: Were you there? DOWNING: Nah! I was still a kid back then. How old do I look fer Chrissakes?! I had a briefing on that, got the whole story, saw the wreckage, and so forth...no aliens...saw some really neat Air Force documents too. A really cool book of photos of aircraft from various angles. It was very interesting, because some of them looked like classic flying saucers. Air Force and commercial pilots were shown this book to reassure them that no alien craft were seen. RAHEEM: You never saw a flying saucer? DOWNING: Never saw an "alien" flying saucer. Our government experimented with some oddball propulsion systems, saucer shapes, some Tesla stuff, but not a helluva lot came from that but a ton of wasted taxpayer dollars. RAHEEM: So, what was going on...why all the covering up and confusion? DOWNING: Politics. Ours is a government at war with itself. Special interests and distrust swirl together into this fractal mess, made worse by the media's involvement. There is a hall-of-mirrors effect which results...and it becomes impossible to see any verity amidst all the noise. Lots of secret clubs in our government. The goddamn COMM-12, AQUARIUS, the Black Ops Brethren...all at war with each other and with the people. RAHEEM: The Black Ops Brethren...you have on past occasions also referred to them as the Men in Black. Is there any truth to the claim that you were once involved with them? DOWNING: MIB SCHMIB! (laughs) They are...not what they used to be. Ah, in the early 80s they redefined themselves...women were admitted. The old boy thing came to an end. It became less social, less...amusing...more ruthless. I screwed up with them...out on my ear. The NSA didn't want me. My records were "wiped" and I was threatened with grave...unspecified consequences. Where they really screwed me is...my hospital benefits. I don't have access to the VA, even though I was in Viet Nam...a Dinky Dow GI [dien cai dao (sp?)=crazy -ed.] ...I went into Laos and Cambodia. Ran a radio show in Phnom Penh [w/the CIA -ed.] to undermine, uh, Sihanouk. RAHEEM: I recall in an article you once wrote about the "Men in Black," you stated that they have a strong historical consciousness... DOWNING: Well, some of those guys were the best. Elite. Ivy league. Top military honors. Distinguished service in clandestine services...etcetera. They were the top PSYOP and counterintell people. They saw that all of history had precedents (for them)...the Black Hand...Chicago gangland...Haitian secret societies...the TonTon Macoute...Swaarte Pieter...the Bon-Po the Tongs... RAHEEM: All this- DOWNING: All of it was employed, dragged into the grand psychological operation. Even science fiction stereotypes...silly hi-tech gadgets, the whole nine yards. It was incredible to see them in action. They had...ah...Ericksonian and NLP tricks [presumably an 80s development -ed.] ...martial arts...James Bond sh*t! The old days of sodium pentothal and Korean War era brainwashing stuff was left in the dust. One could now brainwash people without their knowledge... RAHEEM: What about the implants? Mindcontrolled assassins with implanted...memories...electronic implants with strange alloys and microwave transmitters, etcetera? DOWNING: Hee hee! The fun stuff! I was aware in the early 70s of experiments upon dependednts of military and civilian employees of the government. It was called "intelligence testing," as in "we're going to take your kid in to the nearby military hospital for intelligence testing." I suspect the government had recruited some old nazi doctors to tinker with the brain functions of these kids. I've seen scars on some of the kids...always on the right side of the head. God only knows what was going on, but it was all over the place back (then) in the 70s. I reckon it's still going on, some places. Parents are either in the dark about it or are complicit...but sworn to secrecy. RAHEEM: Holy mackerel! You sound like you ought to be on Art Bell or something! DOWNING: (grins) Don't get me started about that kook! ...heh heh... HE is part of the cover-up if there ever was one. Why on earth would he be so smitten about that pseudonymous Ed Dames.. . RAHEEM: ...and about Bob Lazar? DOWNING: THAT is not even the bastard's real name...speaking of pseudonyms. He is another one of those PSYOPS puppies. Where they found him I'll never know. At least Strieber makes a bit of sense, being a sci-fi writer. When I told this chick I was dating that he wrote "The Hunger" she just about fainted away (laughs)...those damn goths... crack me up. RAHEEM: Um, Alex Constantine has written much about Dr. Louis Jolyon West. Have you heard of him? DOWNING: Oh yeah. That creepy shrink. Never met him, oddly enough. His name's all over the goddamn place. All the US-funded nazi-type stuff has his fingerprints all over it. He's a player in the RV [remote viewing -ed.] stuff too, but like I said, I never met him. RAHEEM: And Constantine? DOWNING: ...the uh, mind control guy... RAHEEM: Yeah. Any comment on him? DOWNING: He writes in that mindcontrol newsgroup...probably right half of the time...I haven't read everything. [see links above for more interviews] ===== Jack Downing Interviews, Pt.2 More interview material with JD A Chat with Jack Downing By John Nowinsky ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) >From the SGRA newsletter July 9, 1998 As many of you know from previous newsletters, Jack Downing is a well-known paranormal researcher, who has contributed to the growth of the SGRA in many ways. He is a swell fellow, and has helped us by providing many useful leads. I had the opportunity to chat with him again on Wednesday, and here's what he had to say . . . Jack Downing: Coverup research is about more than just finding out who manufactures what plane or weapon, and where they test it. What you really need to find out is who is manufacturing our consent. . .Until you can expose the unpleasant means by which the populace has been kept complacent and indifferent to the way their government is manipulating them, they will continue to not care about some of the technological nightmares which are looming on the horizon. . . . . . .So at the root of all the cover-up issues is how people are kept in the dark about things. . .better you should look into how the military/industrial complex controls the networks and Hollywood, and uses them to control public opinion. . . . . .you should wonder why TV commercials and video games are so . . . stroboscopic. . . .& you should wonder why we are being bombarded by so many "Real Cop" and "Paranormal" television shows . . . shows which distort reality while asking us to believe that we are looking at, or for, the "truth" . . . . . . When you see footage on a TV show about UFOs, consider this: I have acquaintances who produce these documentaries, and often they "rig up" and "fabricate" scenes and footage, in order to spice up the show. . .this happens all the time, even for news programs. . .so I ask you to "TRUST NO ONE", not in the media. . .anything you see on TV, read in books or magazines, or read on the 'net should be viewed skeptically. . . . . .Only a few mega-corporations, all of whom have gov't contracts, own most of the media, including the internet, and they DO have a lot of control over what info is permissible. . .what "reality" we may be permitted to see. . . . . .when you are told "The truth is out there," you should understand this phrase to mean that the truth is completely outside of the bounds of print or broadcast media. . .and further, most people will say anything at all, and with a straight face, just to get a little attention, so don't even give complete credence to people you talk to, face to face. . .where do you think daytime talk shows get their guests? . . .our beliefs are force-fed to us. . .it happens in subtle ways, that sometimes we don't know how we came to think a certain way. We laugh when we are shown documentaries about Nazi or Communist propaganda, and we think that we are immune to such obvious stuff. . .but modern media is much more sophisticated than it once was. Propaganda has become a powerful art & science, especially in the wake of MKULTRA and related projects. Those in power can now very subtly bombard us with resonant icons, and we will take the bait, because there is a Pavlovian stimulus-and-reward feedback relation between us and the media. . .when you are dependent on something for all of your news and entertainment, you are vulnerable to it. . .more easily disinformed. Remember that in ancient Rome, the rulers recognized that the populace could be lulled with "bread and circuses". . .and today, every welfare household has a TV, which is just as important as food stamps in alleviating discontent. Q: What is MKULTRA? J.D.: ...MKULTRA was a gov't "black" operation which focused on the means, technologically or chemically, by which the human mind could be completely controlled. In essence, how to create a "Manchurian Candidate" (have you seen that movie?) ...I'd like to clear up some confusion about the nature of projects or operations (or agencies) called "black"...most people think black simply means "ultra top secret," which is actually untrue...for example, there has never been anything black about Nevada test Site/Nellis Bombing range (which includes "area51") ...secret, yes...very secret. But there is no deception. It is federal land, and it's on the map. People are wasting too many brain cells caring about that place. ??lack operation is one that pretends to be something else. . .deception is a key factor. For example, the CIA recruiting people, while deceiving them into thinking that they are working for a corporation or activist group...they never know where their paychecks are coming from. Black is. . .your own government bombing a federal building and then blaming it on extremists or communists. . .you can see that something is going on, but the causality is completely displaced. . .another example is of course the building up of a UFO mythology in order to keep us from thinking about experimental warfighting technologies, or covert domestic operations. . . . . .as investigators of UFOs and paranormal phenomena, you should always ask yourself, when following clues or interviewing people, whether the lead you are following may have conveniently been set for you, by some individual or agency who has a stake in your deception. Most investigations of this sort amount to little more than a merry goose chase. Someone is laughing, at your expense. Remember what I have said in the past about the "hall of mirrors". . . Q: Refresh our memories. J.D.: The "hall of mirrors is the modus operandi and sole function of at least a few "black" agencies within the U.S. and other governments. By means of spinning out distractions and alternate realities, public opinion is shaped, and people are kept from finding out what's really going on. This evolved after WWI [in the U.S.], when the U.S. and British gov't began to hire top advertising people to work in their propaganda departments. It became clear that wars could be won by the control of information alone. Many wars have happened in the 20th century with nary a shot fired, and the civilian population oblivious, until the forces of economic imperialism start setting up shop in their countries. The U.S. is now in a state of constant war with the world, and the stake is economic. The "hall of mirrors" functions to tell the world that the U.S. is the "good guy" and that "everything is okay, just you stay tuned to your TV sets"... ===== Jack Downing Interviews, Pt. 3 A continuation of collected JD interviews. [Here is a transcription an interview with Maj Jack Downing from November of 1998. The interviewer has insisted on his anonymity. ] Introduction: I am picking Major Jack Downing's brain, in the interest of getting a better understanding of some of the things he has alluded to in earlier writings. I have been cautioned that he will likely not answer all of my questions, as he is treading carefully around matters that are still highly classified enough to get him into trouble. Q: First off, I'd like you to explain why you use the title "Major" even though you are not an active-duty military officer. J.D.: It is a tradition that officers in the U.S. Armed Forces can hold on to the rank, as a sort of "honorary" title, that they last held before leaving the service. I suppose it's like being called "doctor" after you've earned a PhD. I left the army only a few years after the Vietnam conflict, and went into civilian employment with the NSA, and they called me Major there, so I got used to using the title. Ironically, during the war I was a captain, but usually went by "Mr." Because I was usually in mufty. I was working alongside the CIA, as a consultant in PSYOPS, and as a specialist in human ecology- Q: Before you proceed, can you explain what you mean by "human ecology"? J.D.: That's a phrase that connotes different things, depending on the context, from the wholesome to the not-so-wholesome. In the capacity for which I was employed, it was a way of pinning down the psyche and behaviors of human beings in differing environments or under various circumstances. It employed the observational principles of anthropologists and psychologists alongside the more manipulative techniques of advertisers, social engineers, and "golden age" brainwashers. It was, in retrospect, a very unorthodox and ethically questionable thing. Q: So what were you doing there? What were you doing with all that? J.D.: Ah, at first I was helping the CIA turn the sentiments of the Cambodian population against the Khmer Rouge. Among other things, we had a radio station which would broadcast western cultural programming to the locals. . .rock-n-roll, pro-American propaganda, sort of a VOA thing, only it was broadcast from within Phnom Penh, and was made to appear as if under strictly local sponsorship. I was back and forth between Vietnam and Cambodia (Kampuchea) doing various things. The radio thing was the most fun. Q: You were in "mufty" as you said- J.D.: Well, both in and out of uniform actually. I had two sets of ID, and in my "civilian" capacity I went about as Mr. Jacob Donleavy, passing as either a journalist, spook, or diplomat, depending on the circumstances. I was Captain Jack Downing in my Army uniform, but my MOS [ army job -ed.] was as varied as my hats. One day I'm in counterintelligence, another day a press liason, yet another time I'd be a Special Forces paratrooper. I had to keep tabs on several operations. Unconventional warfare was no picnic. Most of the operations were laughable failures, mostly due to the meddling of higher-up brass. . .We also brought the MK projects into the war. The, uh, extreme circumstances of warfare gave us excellent opportunities to observe the ways certain mind control technologies might work . . . or fail to work. Q: What would you consider a success? J.D.: Relative to the nature of the operation in question, I'd say that much was learned from the administering of psychoactive substances to the troops under combat stress. LSD, pot, the usual culprits, and then some new chemicals, trying to elicit stronger fight reflexes, etcetera. Q: So you were like. . .a pusher, too? J.D.: [grinning] You could say that. I was providing these substances to the soldiers personally, and would have had to take the fall, so to speak, if the big brass were to protest. Luckily, that didn't happen. What did happen is that these soldiers took stories back with them at the end of their tours. My name was connected with a certain quality of drugs, much like Mezz Mezzrow gave his name to Harlem's best reefer in the 30's. Q: You mean, that "Captain Jack" is you!? J.D. : Presumably. More amusing to me is the "Jacob's Ladder" connection. But anyway, it was all very insightful to me, because in my curiosity, I was consuming some of these substances myself, and learned a whole lot about myself. There was a fellow in army intelligence that I had some acquaintance with who was also messing with the stuff and he got it into his head that he was clairvoyant. There was a whole clique who got into this clairvoyance thing, and got some general to put up money for research. Ed, uh, he was called Ed James back then, was a PSYOPS guy, and still is. I'm a whole helluva lot more psychic than these guys, but I wasn't about to take up that indoors lifestyle when I was having so much fun in the Jungle. A man hasn't really lived until he's seen tracer and mortar fire at night, under the influence of acid. Q: So, back to Phnom Penh... J.D. : We had to hightail it out of there. I really feel bad for those people. Some of my colleagues (the CIA guys) had some women they were seeing out there, real cuties, that they had to abandon to the Khmer Rouge, and you know they got purged. Q: So how long were you out there, in Southeast Asia? J.D. : I served several tours of duties. I'm sorry I have to be vague about the exact years. After that I was over in Germany applying some of the findings we got, and set up some things in a few army bases in the U.S. At the time of my leaving, my role in the army as human ecology expert was taken up by another officer, a Michael Aquino, who was trying out these principles in the context of Anton Lavey's church, and it was alleged (and denied) in some base daycare centers. I knew about the daycare things, but I don't know of any involvement by Aquino. Who knows? Things in intelligence were so compartmentalized that one hand didn't know what the other was doing. Q: Well this is pretty serious though. If you know something about those charges you should have testified when he was investigated. J.D.: Hah! Are you kidding? In our field, nobody was sinless enough to cast the first stone. Anyway, Aquino was a member in good standing with the Black Ops Brethren, which my father was in, and I had to keep my nose clean if there was any hope of me getting in. Q: Can you talk a bit about the Black Ops Brethren? What were they doing in the Vietnam War? J.D. : What they were doing in the war, I am not at liberty to divulge. I was not a member, and had no contact with people identified to me as such. But I would not be surprised if they were not watching my work very closely, because when I did get involved, I saw the file they'd kept on me. It dated from my childhood, and was particularly detailed about my wartime work. Q: And later? J.D. : I've written about that period. I learned about the organization known exoterically as the Men in Black during my indoctrination into the brotherhood. I'd have loved to have talked to my father in greater depth about those earlier years, but he died not long after I got involved, and most of what I know about his secret work I read in the archive of the Black Ops Brethren. Q: As soon as the focus turns directly on the Black Ops Brethren, you tend to get pretty slippery. J.D. : You want to know why? I'll tell you. If I tell so much as a single story about specific operations, I become afraid. Why? I don't know why. Perhaps they conditioned me somehow. Perhaps I'm brainwashed, but I can't bring forth memories of specific activities without having a panic experience. I know how to cure myself of most anxieties and fears pretty easily. This is pretty deep stuff, which even the subtle psychological antidotes which I know won't fix. So. . .what I can do then is try to allude to things, beat around the bush, try to get closer to my own memories by sneakier means. How did I even get started talking about all this "Men in Black" stuff in the first place? I managed after years of struggle to bypass the defenses that were set up inside of me against speaking about those years. I'm tired. I'll tell you more some other time. ===== [Here is a transcription of a dialogue between Major Jack Downing and Norio Hayakawa, dated 08/10/97]: NORIO: Hello Maj, how are you? DOWNING:Fine thank you. NORIO: Good . . .I am an acquaintance of this person named Dames. I am still a doubter as to the veracity of Stargate program. . .if you know what I mean. . .I am sure you are familiar with Stargate? DOWNING: Quite. As for Dames, well he and I have our differences, but our mutual involvement in RV work confirms to me that he is a brilliant and talented individual, but between you and me, this current RV craze is PSYOPS targeted at adversarial nations, whilst sweeping in a lot of gullible Americans and Brits. NORIO: Absolutely Maj. I concur with you. . .I was once interested in remote viewing, etc. . .especially since I met Col John Alexander (formerly with Los Alamos) three times in the past 2 years. DOWNING: Oh Yeah. Col John. He's got his own thing going, not quite teaching TRV with Dames. The Col. Seems to have more restraint. . .I have often wondered why Alexander lets himself be associated with Dames. Dames and I have major differences over the Roswell story, but I can understand if he's just letting himself be the fall guy in some big time PSYOPS thing. NORIO: Maj, Dames is the one who keeps claiming that he trained Col. Alexander. . .but when I talked to the Col, he gave me a different impression. DOWNING: Dames (aka James when stationed in Europe as a spy) has made some pretty preposterous claims in the past few years, when he seemed to pop up out of nowhere with all kinds of strange tales. NORIO: Yes, I know. . .like his wild claims made 4 years ago in regard to Northern New Mexico. . .etc. But nevertheless, I am impressed with his fluency in Chinese. DOWNING: Like I said, he's pretty smart. I think he'd have been more useful in the CIA. On the other hand, he may be already with them. NORIO: Yes, possibly. . .he will make a good asset. . .; by the way Maj, you worked with Ingo Swann before? DOWNING: Never. NORIO: I see, I was just curious. . .you know Col Alexander's wife? . . .I am still trying to figure the true motives of Bob Bigelow backing up Col. Alexander with his Institute for Discovery Sciences. DOWNING: In in a whole different operation. I've met the military people, but Swann also showed up out of nowhere. As for the Col's wife, I did not even know he was married. I met with him many years ago on a professional basis, and never was a wife mentioned in that context. If she is a major player in RV I wouldn't have known it. In truth, I haven't been reading any of these books or seen any of the TV stuff that's come out lately. [*part of transcript missing*] NORIO: (. . .) . . .China Lake Naval Weapons Center years ago in RM; was there ever such a PSYOPS program at China Lake Naval Weapons Center in Ridgecrest, California? DOWNING: There were all kinds of "training" being done to military dependents in all branches of the service. It would not surprise me. NORIO: . . .Well she claimed that she was "trained" for several months on China Lake facility to pinpoint several targets on computer screen. . .such as submarines, etc DOWNING: Interesting. That sort of thing was being done to kids on Army and Air Force bases in Germany, naval bases in England, and some bases in Southeastern US to my knowledge. I didn't hear about China Lake. It must be all over the place. I was aware of this stuff in the early 70s. I'm surprised it's still going on. When I knew about it, it was being treated as "intelligence testing" for particularly bright kids. NORIO: Sorry for asking so many questions. . .were you in the Army, Navy, Air Force? DOWNING: I was in the Army, then moved into the NSA. . . .Col. Alexander (and Ed Dames) may remember me by the last name Donleavy, which I used during the Vietnam war in some operations. NORIO: I see. . .Do you subscribe to Jane's? or DARPA newsletters? DOWNING: I used to subscribe to Jane's. It got boring and repetitive. Now I tune in to C4I-Pro sometimes, but otherwise I'm retired. NORIO: I see. . .(. . .) I was wondering if the ELINT is becoming a vital part of NSA more than ever. . .Rather than SIGINT? DOWNING: I'm not sure I understand your question. What specifically do you mean by "more than ever"? NORIO: I guess my question was not posed right. I was wondering if you had read an article by NEXUS magazine on NSA's part in electronic surveillance? DOWNING: Okay. . .well, the intelligence community strives to keep abreast of all developments in communication, including the world wide web. Newsgroups, listservers, and web pages are monitored for potential subversive or terrorist activity. Electronic surveillance is now a vital part of NSA's mission. Now that the Cold War is over, and future threats are diffused globally, all channels of communication must be dutifully monitored and analyzed. Does that answer your question? And no, I don't reead NEXUS magazine. It is not a good source of accurate info. Believe it or not. The intelligence community does enjoy reading the COVERT ACTION QUARTERLY. We are so compartmentalized that investigative journalists tell us things we should already know. NORIO: It sure does answer the question. And very precise and complete! I agree that it is very important for NSA especially to counter global terrorism. . . DOWNING: It is regrettable that the US has had to assume the role of police force for world peace. The New World Order is actually conspiracy gibberish. The US is openly taking the protective role here, but it is not necessarily going to insure permanent order. The UN thing is simply our way of making sure that other nations share the tab for enforcing world peace. The UN does not own this nation It's the other way around. NORIO: I highly respect the work of Ted Gunderson (whom I also talked a couple of times before), former Fbi Chief Agent in L.A. He was a specialist in terrorism and religious cults. . .he now runs a private agency and does some contract work for the government in hunting down terrorists, etc. DOWNING: Wow. . .you spoke to Gunderson. Did you publish the interview or was it for personal research? NORIO: Ted Gunderson knows me. . .from several years ago. . .he is a great guy. I didn't publish anything Maj. Sometime I just like to talk one to one. . .I am mainly interested in over-all pictures. . .the trends, etc. DOWNING: I understand completely. My impression of you is that you have a voracious, inquisitive mind. You like to flesh out the big picture by means of getting all possible perspectives. NORIO: The reason why Ted Gunderson had heard of me before was because back in 1992, we held some seminars in California on Wackenhut Corporation and its connection to Cabazon Indian tribes, etc, and we invited Ted Gunderson to speak in our seminar. . .and he showed up. . .along with a guy by the name of Pender or something like that who they said was in the NSA. At the time, I was giving a presentation on Groom Lake Complexes, in the seminar. DOWNING: What, in your finding, is the connection between Wackenhut and the Cabazon Indians, or perhaps more clearly, what was the finding of the seminar? NORIO: Well, at the time there was a scandal involving Wackenhut and the Cabazon indian tribes because Wackenhut was paying Cabazons a large sum of money and somehow they were using the reservation there in testing of modifications of the PROMIS software. . .a computer software program for prosecutors. . . DOWNING: Interesting. . . NORIO: The reason I was into Wackenhut stuff was because I knew the wife of this guy named Michael Riconosciuto, who was an expert on ballistics and Fuel Air Explosion, and who apparently gave a lot of interesting secret information to a journalist by the name of Danny Casolaro. . .(who was planning to write a book called THE OCTOPUS. . .a non-fiction book). . .and Michael Riconosciuto worked for Wackenhut. . .and later was imprisoned on trumped-up charges. DOWNING: (. . .). . .at no time during my time with Intelligence did I have any connection with or involvement in Indian Affairs. . .I am approximately on e quarter Seminole, and there was probably some concern about my loyalty. That is perhaps why Indian reservation controversies were never brought to my attention. NORIO: I se. . .well, Major, during the early eighties, it seemed that Wackenhut was doing a lot of contract work, such as bio-chemical stuff and was using several Indian reservation areas because of different jurisdictions, etc. . .and for convenience. . .and the reservations received compensation for these programs!! DOWNING: I'm sure they did. Some reservation "leaders" are little better than mobsters. NORIO: I agree. . .by the way, are you in East Coast or West Coast or Midwest or where? DOWNING: I am in NYC. NORIO: I see. . .are you a patriot? DOWNING: heh heh. . .I have no choice. I swore my life over to Uncle Sam many years ago. Nowadays my sentiments are libertarian. I have a long family tradition of pro-constitutional values, and am supportive of some (but not all) of the militia agendas. NORIO: That's a good answer, Maj. I am ready to die for this country and would be a great honor to do so. I am also pro-Constitutional and also supportive of some (but not all) of the issued raised by the so-called militia agendas. DOWNING: I suspect you would die for this country, but not necessarily for this government? I ask this because I am wondering why you are so dead-set on exposing Area 51. NORIO: You are absolutely right, Maj!!!(LOL) The government should be us, but unfortunately it seems that it is being influenced by so many lobbyists whose agendas may not necessarily be for this country. DOWNING: It's a sad consequence of the rags-to-riches American Dream. If you can scare up enough baksheesh, you can pull any strings you want. This country would be in the palm of your hand. Or mine. One person = one vote? It is like when this nation started. One votes with ones pocketbook. Bigger pocketbooks = bigger votes. NORIO: By the way, I am not really interested in exposing anything. . .to tell you the truth. . .I have made a big mistake in presenting that kind of an image to the public!!! There is nothing to expose about Area 51 . . . because there doesn't seem to be anything highly unusual about that place!! DOWNING: You are right. There is nothing there. The Black Projects have moved out to the remote Pacific. . . NORIO: What I am mostly interested in is the study of how people react to certain philosophies and even conspiracy outlooks. . .In other words, I am interested in the study of how "conspiracy theories" affect people's psychology, not that I believe in any conspiracies per se. . .In fact, I am certain that this is one way of measuring the trends of the worldview of the public. . .and by raising conspiratorial questions, you can study part of human nature more efficiently. . . [*remainder of interview consist of making farewells*] <more at web site> ----- Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, All My Relations. Omnia Bona Bonis, Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance�not soap-boxing�please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'�with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds�is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 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