CKLN 88.1 FM RYERSON POLYTECHNICAL UNIVERSITY Toronto MIND CONTROL RADIO SERIES Producer/Interviewer: Wayne Morris Tape 46a Gail Fisher-Taylor & Caryn Stardancer This is broadcast 46 of the radio series that has been going on for about one whole year on this show concerning government military mind control and cult ritual abuse. Today we are going to be focusing on the latter aspect of this - ritual abuse and we are going to be talking about a lot of different issues within that topic and I have with us in the studio Toronto psychotherapist, Gail Fisher-Taylor and we should have by phone, Caryn Stardancer, a California-based advocate for survivors and publisher of "Survivorship". GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: I am a psychotherapist in Toronto. I also do consultation as well as education in terms of workshops, and one of my areas is definitely focusing ritual abuse, sadistic abuse, cult abuse. CARYN STARDANCER: I am a survivor myself, and when I was in recovery there really wasn't anything being said about ritual abuse, cult abuse or mind control that I knew about. There weren't any resources available, so when I finished my recovery, myself and another survivor began publication of a small newsletter that we were doing on my friend's kitchen table and sending it out. Now we have an international non-profit. We have members in every state of the USA, and all the provinces in Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand. Our membership is made up of survivors and professionals who treat them. WAYNE MORRIS: I would like to just briefly review the ritual abuse aspects of the series of the past year as it ties into government mind control. We have heard from Dr. Stephen Kent, Professor of Sociology at the University of Alberta, who specializes in contraversial religious groups, and ritual abuse, alleged abuse in this context. We have also heard from Lynne Moss-Sharman, a survivor and advocate who started The Stone Angels group for ritual abuse survivors from the Thunder Bay area and her testimony of the prevalence of ritual abuse in that area, more particularly within the Masonic Lodge context. We have also heard from Jeanette Westbrook, a survivor in the United States. Her father and his friends had allegedly ritually abused her as a child and teenager, and it's very interesting in that she did attemptl to bring her father to court. He died just before being extradited to face charges. Her father was responsible for all the nuclear power plant inspections in the United States, not to mention being a Mormon church deacon, boy scout leader, 33 degree Mason, and so forth. We heard the testimony given to the U.S. government radiation hearings by Claudia Mullen, and the ritual aspects of her experimentation. We heard from quite a number of other people - other survivors of government mind control that has also had a ritual abuse aspect. There seem to be many levels of this kind of activity, and I would like to talk about that. We have heard from government mind control survivors who have experienced ritual abuse in that context, for a particular purpose. There have also been many allegations of people being involved local cult activity. I would like to ask you both what your experiences or perceptions are in terms of the different levels of cult activity and its purpose. CARYN STARDANCER: Without trying to go on too long (these things can sometimes turn into hours), my abuse started in the forties, WWII. So obviously some of the things I first saw were a mixture of people who were involved in military, and who were in power settings and were doing that kind of experimentation. There were also Masonic connections. In the time I was given "mentorship" I was told there was something called The Pantheistic Occult, and essentially what that meant was that there are all different kinds of systems under which mind control can be perpetrated (or belief systems, religious beliefs, political beliefs). Basically the idea is that you target a person - by where their vulnerabilities are - dependent upon their cultural or educational group, the profession in which they are involved, where their vulnerabilities are - by what they already believe. There are different ways people are brought into the system. Some of them are churches - there was certainly a church involved in the early contact with my family. What the Pantheistic Occult basically meant was that it basically doesn't matter what the belief system is, it depends on the person's adaptability, the way they respond to issues of power, and you move your way up depending on your adaptability. You may never know that there is a group larger than the one you are involved in, or you may, depending on how you move through the system, and also how the people who are in contact with you move through the system. WAYNE MORRIS: When you say it doesn't really matter in terms of the specific ideology, do you think the religious or belief systems involved here are a front for the abuse, or for other criminal activity? What part does that play in these groups? CARYN STARDANCER: Definitely. For example, the people who were teaching me about the Pantheistic Occult were directly involved in what was called a Dionysian Sect. That was explained as having started in pre-Christian times - it had to do with the profession they were involved in - which was the Law. Essentially most of what they were doing was political blackmail. The use of the children had to do with having them adapted to sex - for example, having them photographed in a film with adults who were being blackmailed. It was then easy to manipulate them. The people bought into it more or less. Some were very cynical about it, and said it was all about power, it didn't really matter. Other people really "believed". It's so individual how different people respond. For example, in the one church I went to some people were very much involved in satanism, and very much believed, but other people would just laugh about it privately and just say it's the system to get the minions, to terrorize them. In that sect, in all of the different groups I've been exposed to, and that's what I hear from survivors over the world, that it really depends on who you are, and who you are in contact with - how much people believe. The belief system is used essentially to indoctrinate, entrance, terrorize - and it's part of the mind control system in that all mind control is a conditioned response where feelings are put together with ideas. WAYNE MORRIS: It seems like the common thread here, irregardless of how seriously the participants take their ideology, is the criminal activities. Perhaps Gail, you could talk about the commonality of the criminal activity within the accounts of ritual abuse survivors. GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: There is a lot of criminal activity, and some people actually talk about ritual abuse being used as a smoke-screen for criminal activity. Certainly there are the child and adult pornography and prostitution rings; drug trafficking. There are often reports from survivors of cult connections with organized crime which is the Mafia. We are talking about really different kinds of groups as well. I have heard reports from survivors of what seem to be groups of people who get together and have maybe an informal local cult, and maybe deal in some level of pornography and prostitution. It seems quite local actually. And I have also, as Caryn Stardancer is reporting, heard many reports of much more organized activity where the cults have connections that go far beyond local activity. And those seem to be the cults that get into the organized criminal activity. WAYNE MORRIS: We are going to be opening the phone lines at around 10 o'clock, so if any of our listeners have any questions they would like to put to the panelists, please get ready to do so. I would like to get a sense, in terms of the local cults, and however those start up - how widespread, in your opinion, is this kind of activity happening across North America? CARYN STARDANCER: I would say it is very widespread, considering we have members from all over the place, from cities to small towns, and also when I was growing up my exposure was from rural areas to cities. When you talk about the larger organization - often in a local group a small group may not know anything about a larger organization, and maybe only one person in that group - who basically is coming in and has a charismatic power - and that person may be networked beyond, but no one else in the group ever finds out that the person may be involved in a number of different groups, and is moving around. Things are very eclectic. GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: A friend of mine, Christine Oksana, who wrote "Safe Passage to Healing" which is a guide basically for ritual abuse survivors, talks about ritual abuse as being interwoven in the fabric of society, basically world-wide. Something else she talks about is the idea that when people are abused, traumatic re-enactment is really ritual. There is a ritualization when people are re-enacting their trauma. What I mean by that is that when people are traumatized, they repeat something to do with their traumas, trying to resolve the trauma in some sort of way. For instance if somebody has been sexually abused, they may have ritualized kinds of activities that they keep on doing, and don't understand why they are doing it, they are not connecting it to their trauma. What happens is that when people are re-enacting traumatic events - eg. if someone has been sexually abused, and they are perpetrating sexual abuse as an adult and they get together with other abusive people who have also been sexually abused and are re-enacting - there is a ritualization that occurs. We have everything from informal groups getting together - and as Caryn says, I agree, I think there is often networking involved and it's interesting how the networking can occur on those informal and formalized bases. I think the explanation of trauma underneath a lot of this activity really explains the great draw people have to do these terrible activities. CARYN STARDANCER: Very much so, and it can come from either direction. It can be people who are re-enacting their trauma and someone may get interested in the whole mechanism of how having a belief system helps relieve the feeling that "I am doing something wrong". You may have one person who is very bright who starts to look into it and learn more, and then find out there are more people in different places doing it, and then network from that direction. Or you may have people who have always had their family or their connections in the system that come into contact with people who have been traumatized for example by prostitution, sex clubs, pornography, and in that way bring people into the group. That's why I mean it is very eclectic. And then you have these lone psychopathic personalities who are behaving ritualistically, but to the victim, it doesn't really matter that much whether it's one person enacting ritualistic torture or whether it's a whole group of people. The response to it is pretty much the same. WAYNE MORRIS: Within this ritual activity, there have been a lot of allegations of children being used for either sacrificial victims or further traumatization of the children for the purposes of mind control. How typically are children introduced into these cults? CARYN STARDANCER: There are too many ways to say there is a typical way. Some are born into it, some just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's pretty universal however, and I think it also has a psychological basis in that anyone who has been abused, and now that we are building on centuries and centuries of abuse - it requires loss of innocence. There is a part of the psyche that responds to the idea of sacrifice of innocence because you have lost your own, and then there is the other parts that just have to do with how lucrative it is financially to involve children, and also how easy it is to condition and terrorize children, teach them anything you want to teach them. There are so many different reasons, and so many different scenarios. There isn't a simple answer. GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: That's what we get a lot of reports of. Of course there are the daycare cases where children are abused in daycare settings, and there are many reports where children get involved in these cults through their families or neighbourhood cults, but as Caryn says, there are a number of different ways that people get involved - through babysitters, becoming involved with adults who are involved in the cults. WAYNE MORRIS: What do you think is the force that has created these cult activities? Are they are in a sense 'home-grown' in terms of the local cults, or is there generally another kind of connection there that goes back to these organized religious groups, intelligence and military connections? GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: Again, I think we have a lot of different scenarios, and you have to remember that there is a long and deep history here. We have reports of satanic cults, and other kinds of cults, that go back centuries. There was certainly a big cult around Louis XIV's time, for instance, with not just reports, but forensic evidence that there were sacrifices of children, all kinds of satanic alters found. It's quite a well documented case. We have cults in history, we know cults exist and we keep getting reports of cults that are involved in the kind of criminal activity we are talking about, whether or not the belief system has to do with satanism or some other kind of belief system - if there is criminal activity, and terrorizing of children, and mind control - we are basically talking about ritual crime. CARYN STARDANCER: Also when you have a belief system - a belief system can either be used to uplift or to subjugate - and that goes back to the beginning of time. For example since I was born in a generational system, there were people there who talked about the occult tradition, and they traced it back directly to pre-Christian Dionysians. They had a whole occult tradition where they interpreted history, and they had stories about the different things that happened to the movement of their group. And that was just one sect that I was exposed to. At the same time I have talked to people who are in Native American and Aboriginal groups who have had their belief systems perverted by - it can even be by just one person who had been sexually abused who then began to pervert the rituals for control. There are just so many different ways - and essentially we just have to realize that a belief system can be used either to uplift or subjugate. That's why there are so many different permutations and why it is all the way through history. WAYNE MORRIS: A Christian belief system can be reinforced in part of the cult members' lives as a jumping board for the satanic belief system in their cult activity? Do you see that duality? CARYN STARDANCER: In Christian and satanic cults, absolutely because that is the cultural context in which good and evil is interpreted, so certainly you see Christian groups who use satanism, and you have satanic groups who use Christianity. You have Christian groups who simply the concept of Christianity - that's the way it is. It just depends on the group and the people and their interpretation, and their connections. It's a belief system, and a belief system can be used to subjugate or uplift. So certainly it is used to subjugate in a lot of different instances. WAYNE MORRIS: My point more was whether a Christian belief system has been fostered within the satanic cults, so that the satanic rituals will have more - there seems to be a perversion of Christianity in satanism. And I wonder whether they foster the Christian belief systems in order to pervert them in their cult rituals. And I am talking about the same people here. CARYN STARDANCER: Essentially that's what I meant by the cultural context, and a culture that has a lot of Christians is always going to have the other side. That's just the duality of Christianity and satanism.So you are always going to see those things, and yes, they definitely utilize the belief system that has to do with the symbols of satan and Christ as representing good and evil. One of the things that helps - when you say 'occult" meaning 'secret' - I believe the occult belief system goes hand-in-hand with the evolution of human rights. So as you develop human rights, you make laws against abuse. And when you make laws against using beliefs for abuse, then that abuse goes underground. That doesn't mean that there aren't countries where a religious political system allows abuse because they don't have human rights yet that have outlawed that activity. GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: What you are saying basically Caryn, is that the abuse goes underground if there are laws against it and that it is overt if there aren't laws against it, if it is allowed to happen out in the open. CARYN STARDANCER: Exactly, and I am sorry I have a dissociative disability and I have a difficult time with telephones so I have trouble tracking my thoughts since I am a survivor myself. GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: I think your thoughts are going very clearly. WAYNE MORRIS: Definitely. I would also like to get a feeling for your impressions of particularly the cult leaders - their social status - and how can they get away with operating these cults within the public society? GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: The cult leaders come from, again, a number of different contexts. But I think what is shocking, and what is difficult for people to believe, is when those cult leaders happen to also be leaders in other contexts. In other words, leaders in business, leaders in government, leaders in the military. And there certainly lots of reports where this is what is being reported. CARYN STARDANCER: In my experience the leaders were always people of power, because the system was about the hierarchy of power. GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: And in terms of the way they get away with it - the structures of power are such that if there are members of the cult who are both leaders in business, leaders in terms of let's say members of the police department, members of the criminal justice system - judges or lawyers - it becomes often - in these kinds of contexts - an old boys' network. You've got people protecting other people so if there is any kind of revelation that this kind of activity is going on, their members in the media are going to participate in the cover-up, or in the blasphemy, outrageousness of such allegations. If the police department is involved - and there are often reports of police being involved. In Saskatchewan, for instance, the Martensville case. It is very easy for police to conduct an investigation that will throw their whole case out of court for instance. If you have a lot of people in many different positions of power, and there is collusion among them, it is much more difficult especially when the public doesn't know about the principles of dissociation and the way that trauma works, the way that the human psyche works around trauma. It is very easy for the media, police and criminal justice system to play on the public's disbelief. CARYN STARDANCER: Also all we have to do is look at something like Watergate or the current Monica Lewinsky case, and look at how difficult it is to get the facts. In the Monica Lewinsky case, if anything happened, it was sex between two adults - look how difficult it is to get any kind of information. When I was a child, you would have something that would be like a private birthday party for a powerful person in town. At that birthday party, drugs were ingested that the people didn't know about - some happened to be judges or police or certain lawyers - people who have power in that town. In the course of the evening they would be photographed having sex with little children, under the influence of drugs, but that didn't make any difference. If then people had those films, how far are you going to get in prosecuting if the people who bring the case have that kind of blackmail evidence available against them? <= we're not machines you know => +++ we're not going to fall over in rows +++ Dr. King - On The Beach - 1959 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aches-mc.org ************************************************************** MINDCONTROL-L Mind Control and Psyops Mailing List To unsubscribe or subscribe: send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text: "unsubscribe MINDCONTROL-L" or "subscribe MINDCONTROL-L". Post to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wes Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, list moderator
