On Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 07:35:07PM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] thoughtfully expounded: > Gene: Haven't you heard? Many of the Company beasts are Yale "men." And > Burroughs Wellcom -- they are strongly suspected of having developed > methamphetamine which killed many of may friends in Berkeley, San > Francisco -- to mention only two places. > Would you recommend Yale, Wellcom, et al., hooking up wires to our > friends heads for EEG "tests" so that fedbeast can really zero in on them > and MUTILATE OUR FRIENDS? > Much more shit like this and you'll be regarded as a dangerous agent. This raises an interesting question: In the late 40's and 50's the CIA went to the foremost experts in psychiatry and neurology to help them with what can broadly be called MC experiments. Today where are we to look for experts in these areas if one is afraid that all top scientists in certain regions are by definition "perps"? I'm afraid that looking for expert help outside of the medical and scientific arenas is really self-defeating. Otherwise you find yourself allied with pseudo-scientific experts who lack the ability to separate scientific fact from fantasy. Gene is posting valuable citations that cover many areas of brain function and related topics. Like it or not, many reported symptoms of MC cannot be differentiated from schizophrenia and other delusional disorders just by reading a person's description of their symptoms. This is one of the basic reasons that MC survivors "don't get no respect". The topic gets further confused when we use the term MC to describe everything from the mass manipulation of people's ideological base by media, government, and advertisers, covertly or otherwise, to the individual control of a person's thoughts and motor activity via some kind of electronic/sonic action at a distance. I must say that after looking at this topic for over 6 years, it does seem difficult to credit claims of thousands of MC/SRA victims, especially the more lurid claims of hundreds of children being "factory processed" as MC trauma victims as I have seen on other MC lists I was on. Sooner or later, solid physical evidence of such a thing would emerge. My key question has not been whether there are thousands or tens of MC victims, but rather whether there have been zero or one. The general public assumes the answer is zero, while it can be pretty well documented that there has been at least one. Since I don't post here often, let me introduce myself and explain where I stand on MC: I publish the "DEEP BLACK MAGIC: US Govt Research in ESP & Mind Control" website at http://www.mindspring.com/~txporter. "This site is devoted to exposing over forty years of U.S. government research into Extra Sensory Perception and the psychological 'technology' of individual mind control using drugs, hypnosis and abuse. It is an attempt to provide access to mainstream resources about this subject and to offer support to 'veterans' of the U.S. intelligence community's research and operational programs." >From the Intro section: ---------------------- "In the past several years there has been a great deal of interest in the topics of Mind Control, Psychic Spying, Classified Human Experimentation, and our government's role, if any, in such unusual areas of research. Nowhere has this interest been more obvious than on the NET. There is a tremendous amount of information about these topics out there, and ultimately each reader must make their own decisions about the validity of the information they find. I have tried to show that the US Intelligence Community has had a documented interest in these three areas, and that there is some overlap between them. Many of the details of the CIA's MK-ULTRA programs have been publicized since the Church hearings in the 70's. The CIA's interest in parapsychology has broken the surface of the news several times since the 70's as well, but the fall of 1995 opened the floodgates concerning 'Psychic Spying' with the announcements about projects 'Grill Flame' and 'Stargate.' Classified human experimentation has been exposed in all its horror with the Office of Human Radiation Experiments' reports on 50 years of human rights abuses in the name of science and the cold war. If one accepts Remote Viewing as an intelligence gathering mechanism of unique capabilities, even if only sporadically, then the question of how to control or limit its use by the Remote Viewers certainly becomes relevant. Even in the Intelligence Community itself, access to raw intelligence and the methods of collection has always been severely limited. Once the intellectual hurdles of accepting that RV works had been overcome, I feel certain that the next items on the agenda would be counter-measures and control of the remote viewing assets. Some of the discussion about mind control has centered on the use of drugs and hypnosis for gaining control of an individual and modifying their behavior. Both of these avenues of research were strenuously pursued by the CIA. As can be seen further on in my site, a prominent hypnotist has admitted going so far as to create whole alternate personalities for intelligence agents during WWII. There is a substantial debate raging these days over whether severe physical and psychological trauma during childhood can cause the creation of alternate or multiple personalities as well, through much the same mechanism as hypnosis, namely dissociation. Anthropologists, as well as therapists working with multiple personality disorder, have discovered links between trauma and parapsychological abilities. Parapsychology archives are full of reports where tragedies and accidents triggered parapsychological events of all kinds. Even anecdotal reports from combat soldiers support the connection between trauma, stress, and parapsychology. I feel that the US Intelligence Community has long been aware of these relationships and has specifically made use of drugs, hypnosis, stress, and trauma-based conditioning to: a. enhance the extended perception abilities of certain experimental subjects, and b. control and compartmentalize these abilities via hypnotic suggestion and the creation of alternate personalities so that they would not easily be available to the subject, but only upon approval by authorized intelligence officers. I believe that these pages show this speculation is at least worth considering, and that the US Intelligence Community has had the motive, the opportunity, and the means, to say nothing of the ruthlessness, to pursue this line of research." ------------------ I have drawn my own working definition of mind control from the typical "Machurian Candidate" or Kathy O'Brien {SP?} model of MC, which puts me in the middle of the spectrum of definitions for MC I mentioned earlier. I have attended a couple of conferences on MC and attended the Human Radiation Experiment hearings in DC a few years back. My own approach to researching the topic of non-consensual MC experiments is now focussed on ferreting out the existing documentation on the scope of cold war experiments and uncovering scientific citations that support or explain the mechanisms by which drug/trauma/hypnosis based MC could achieve "Manchurian Candidate"-like sucesses. If one can show there is a historical and scientific basis for claims of MC, _besides survivor claims_ then I think that claimants have a much better chance of getting people to listen to them. Many people immersed in MC phenomenology take it as a given that MC is possible and work from there. Ditto with an assumed familiarity with the existing historical material. It is easy to lose track of the fact that the general public is completely unaware of the documented abuses of human subjects during the cold war, or the documented state of hypnosis and behavioral modification research. Even the recent shows on MKUltra have obsessed over Cameron and neglected other documented MC researchers such as George Estabrooks at Colgate University, who can be shown to have done much more in terms of creating Manchurian Candidate MC agents than Cameron ever dreamed of. Finally, as far as disowning Gene's idea (or Gene) as being anti-survivor, or inappropriate for this list, I would say that this is a MC Information list, not a support group. If people cannot defend their allegations in this friendly arena, then how will their ideas ever stand against the attacks of FMSF etc.? Thanks for reading this, if you get this far. I welcome all comments, criticisms and flames. -- Tom Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' 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