So John Judge is just a liar, looks to me that the guy is getting vilified for not being orthodox. Do you all really think there hasn't been some scriptwriting and scenarios built-in to the whole op.
And ops are general less than the sum of their parts.
I just haven't seen any solid proof on the no plane, myself. Can folks point to the best evidence? DC is an area where many ops are run and it would make sense to try hard to antagonize and discredit "conspiracy theory" strong there amongst the many fragile hoodwinks.
Because whether or know government folks were in on the op, many would have much better vantage point and access to info to deconstruct the official story, so by laying a no-plane canard to the DC person at the feet of conspiracy theorist would make some sense.
Like, I said, I haven't really studied this issue, I have been to the where's (waldo) websites and have been intrigued enough to look at archived issues of Time, newsweek and other such media and find no pics of plane , which I do find intriguing. But I have and am real busy involved with researching Bones, propaganda, mass -psychology, magic and other subjects. And like I said, John Judge, called the other day looking for Hopsicker's new book and I had heard his name being bandied about and asked him, his explainations and rhetoric belied a person who was hurt and upset about the situation, not one lieing. As on ctrl emails, caveat lector, means be aware of what you read and how beliefs in what you read effect change, etc,
I still do not know, but these first missives from John in public do not tell me he is a liar. The charge is supposition, IMHO if someone can produce verifiable proof then please do. I am sure the situation has deteriorated since given the viciousness of some of the attackers, which is not unusual for new converts to the conspiracy way of understanding. (And not all is conspiracy, either). I have some folks want me to call Bones Satanists and now some lefties and Demos want me to be quiet so that Kerry will win. I have been called a fool, a nut, an egoist, a spy (many differing varieties), have been told for many years that Bones is irrelevant, etc. I know who, I am. I am just a guy whose Daddy told him something, I didn't understand or believe many years ago, and because of My Dad's words have been looking at covert actions for many years. And have witness many people go through changes when confronted with such material ... and what the material imply. Denial, overboard, zealotry, etc follow, generally though once interest is piqued, the interest is followed.
Judge could be wrong on some points also and the truth may lie somewhere between. I do not know. How will we know with out research, study and testimony? Not by declaring orthodoxy or by shunning and acting as true believers..
MHO
Om
K
The following was written by John Judge in response to a post on minneapolis.indymedia.org about how citing something is "Conspiracy Theory" avoids examination or discussion of facts.
Not all conspiracies are created equal
by John Judge
30 October 2002
You get the details of the first three right, but then I doubt you did your own homework to get there. The ballistics don't work in the MLK case either, and the rifle Ray purchased was not the murder weapon. Then again, just because someone tells you the government is lying to you it doesn't mean they are telling you the truth. Especially not some French novel writer concocting a fantasy about what happened on 9/11 at the Pentagon.
I can tell you are not from DC, nor have you done your homework on American Airlines Flight 77, which did indeed hit the Pentagon and kill all aboard, several construction workers outside and about 15 Pentagon employees. The pilot went 270 degrees out of his way in an amazing full speed descending spiral to hit the empty side of the building. This minimized the number of deaths actually, as had been the case with hitting the first of the Twin Towers at 8:43 instead of an hour later when tens of thousands would have died.
How do I know Flight 77 hit the Pentagon? First, local news immediately interviewed and broadcast eyewitness accounts of the plane going in. I have since interviewed many local people who watched the plane and even ducked as it flew so low overhead. The Pentagon has not released footage of it, and the local news media did not catch the moment as they had in New York City. It was not for lack of knowing it was coming, they had told us that a good 35-40 minutes ahead.
Second, I was convinced I had lost a dear friend and fellow assassination researcher that day, who was a regular flight attendant on Flight 77 from Dulles to LAX. Thankfully, she was home with her ailing father and was not killed. She was taken with other ground crew and attendants who worked that route to see the damage at the Pentagon, and she recognized parts of the plane she had flown so often.
There was rubble and remains despite your claims. She was shown autopsy photos of her fellow crew members, including the severed arm of her best friend at work, which she recognized from the bracelet she wore.
Third, others who expound on this idea that the plane did too little damage to the building may not realize that the fuel is in the wings, and that they disintegrated on contact, while spreading the fireball that burned the fuel, the building and the plane. They may not recall that part of the purpose of rebuilding that side of the Pentagon, which they had been doing quite visibly for almost 4 years, was to reinforce it against just such an attack, and there is a clearly visible difference in the level of destruction done on either side of that reinforced section.
As to the water putting out the fire, it did not for quite a while. The fire was still smoking into the next day. The water denied extra tinder to the initial fire perhaps, by soaking it. Airplane fuel burns very hot but also very quick. They also used foam and other firefighting techniques, not just streams of water.
Do your homework. I am no friend of The Nation and the anti-conspiracy fetish their writers exhibit and have since the time of the Kennedy assassination. I am, if anything, one of the first to wear the moniker "conspiracy theorist". John McLaughlin on his News Hour once claimed that the character portrayed by Mel Gibson in the movie "Conspiracy Theory" was based on my "personality." Another laughable claim, but evidence that what I have been researching and saying gets under their skin enough to make them drag me out of obscurity into the national media.
I'm willing to be called a conspiracy theorist as long as you call everyone else a coincidence theorist. The U.S. military-industrial-intelligence state and its police forces were intimately involved in the murders of John and Robert Kennedy and Dr. King, and we are still working hard to get final release of their own massive documents and files that relate to that history.
We have convinced all but the most unthinking elements of the American public that these murders were not the work of the patsies assigned to them, but of the highest levels of government. We have done so partly by hard and exhaustive forensic and medical and historical research, and partly because the same national security state has wanted us to know, without a full confession, that they did it. It was a warning and a way to try to kill our hope for change.
Similar diamond-hard research needs to be applied to the facts and events of 9/11 and since, as well as the history that led up to it. Rumor is not research, and we only sully the truth by jumping to believe the sensational. Cynicism is healthy, but informed cynicism is the only way to avoid paranoia and confustion.
Not all "conspiracies" are created equal. The government did kill JFK, and they lied about it. That does not mean there was never a Holocaust, or that the world is run by the Illuminati. The blindness of Chomsky and the other left structuralists is that they make the class out to be monolithic and without mechanisms to carry out its will. They fear that if you think there was any reason to kill a president then you don't understand how capitalism works, and that you will be filled with false hope about the Kennedy clan, who were only more of the same old ruling class. They can't let themselves think JFK could really have intended to pull out of the Vietnam war, since he went along with legacy left him by Nixon and the 40 committee, which included the Bay of Pigs operation already on the books.
But when JFK saw the CIA and the Cubans in action he refused to be pushed into sending American troops into Cuba. When the Joint Chiefs were ready and raring to go into full scale nuclear war with the USSR during the missile crisis, JFK was almost the only level head in the room who refused. And he WAS pulling out of Vietnam. He had given the orders and forced the Joint Chiefs to project that withdrawal by the end of 1964 during the month of April, 1963.
The Joint Chiefs reversed him 180 degrees plus on the Monday following his assassination, projecting instead a 10-year war with 57,000 dead that freaked out my mother enough to take it back up to the Chiefs and question it, the first civilian protest to the war in Vietnam by their highest paid woman manpower analyst.
And even today you can go into the homes of poor Black people in the South and find pictures on the wall of Jesus, Dr. King and the Kennedy brothers because of the hope for change they represented in their response to popular movements like civil rights and nuclear disarmament. Kennedy called for an end to the Cold War in June of 1963. He was going after the Mafia and threatening the tax writeoffs of the oil rich. He said in October he would "scatter the CIA to the four winds", and behind the scenes he was reaching out to normalize relations with Cuba that last year.
But it's not enough for Howard Zinn and Alexander Cockburn, much less Max Holland and David Corn. They want more dirt, and they want us never to notice a tree for fear we will miss the forest. The hard truth of the matter is that the left critique of Kennedy, and there is one to be made, is not the issue. It is the right's critique of him that mattered, what Generals Curtis Lemay and Lyman Lemnitzer thought of him and what they did about it.
Chomsky says that such "conspiracies" only exist outside the mechanisms of state power, are rare and are stopped when discovered (like Contragate he claims). And yet, when you raise the assassination of Martin Luther King with him then he becomes a "conspiracy theorist" too, saying that it was planned at the highest level of government, maybe using the Mafia, and covered up. He says they had a REASON to kill Dr. King. So, with them, it's just a function of how much you liked the guy whether he was done in by coincidence or not. Gee, maybe they'll start to wonder about the Wellstone plane crash?
But in the end you can only get to the truth with hard work, comparing and sorting facts and rumors, and digging for the hidden reality as well as the obvious. We are paralyzed in America, says Martin Schotz in his great book History Will Not Absolve Us: Orwellian Control, Public Denial, and the Murder of President Kenned (Kurtz, Ulmer and DeLucia, 1996), by the fact that we can BELIEVE anything but we are allowed to KNOW nothing.
Until we know, we cannot act. And if we act on rumor and impulse then we are no less a slave than those who live in the denial that the propaganda machines promote. So, be cynical and question things, but be analytical and scientific so you can approach the truth when you speak. Three truths don't make a fourth just by mentioning them. All lies, in fact, depend on having elements of the truth in them for verismilitude as its called. Read, don't repeat what you last heard. And if you are going to be more than a theorist, then give conspiracy the respect it deserves, and prove it. Good hunting, and always come clean.
PS -- If you want to hear from and meet some real researchers who do serious work on assassinations and 9/11 join us in Dallas, Texas from November 22-24 this year at the Hotel Lawrence just off Dealey Plaza for the annual regional meeting of the Coalition on Political Assassinations on "Seeking the Truth from 11/22 to 9/11".
Om
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Flight of Fantasy: Flight 77 Didn't Hit the Pentagon
by John Judge
23 October 2002
Mail from John Judge to Jack Riddler (www.osamaskidneys.com).
Thanks for these thoughtful comments, most of which I agree with. However, while I want the investiation to be thorough and open I do not believe that we have to make a united front with one and all who have "questions" to get there. In fact, it only takes a few of these discreditable theories or thinly veiled anti-Semitism to get us all branded, as Dick Ochs was at the Unanswered Questions panel event, and not even allowed to respond. I'm for creating a credible, progressive unity and moving from there to convince others, not retaining a "politics-free" right/left coalition that allows any nutcase into the mix.
Let me dispel your agnosticism on Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon, which would not be an issue if the film coverage here had approached that in NY or even if official footage would ever be released. However, I base the conclusion that the plane hit the Pentagon on the following:
1. It's route was followed from Ohio and announced in advance and reported on up to and including the hit. We in DC knew it was coming at us for at least 30 minutes, and for much longer at the Pentagon. The plane was never "lost to radar" for 30 minutes, only for a few when its abrupt turn left spotters in the tower looking in the direction of its previous course and not finding it. Turning off the transponder only turns off an identifying tag, it does not cause any inability to see the plane on radar. Beyond all the FAA and NORAD radar tracking it, there is separate and special radar on 24/7 in the P-56 restricted area around DC and even radar on the roof of the Pentagon that was pointed out to me in 1998 as "watching the skies to make sure they don't fly a plane in here". The "they" referred to "Muslims" who had been calling in death threats daily, supposedly.
2. Eyewitness accounts abound in the local area, and people were quoted all day on the local news who saw the plane hit. I have since spoken to at least half a dozen people who were eyewitness to the event and saw the plane make the descending loop and fly along Wilson Blvd and then so low it took off lamppost lights. Some people hit the ground it was coming in so low. Ground crew members who survived the crash, and not all did, were describing their own horror on local news afterwards. One woman in the building saw the tip of the nose crash through her office. We know the plane hit here in DC, because people saw it, hundreds of them.
3. As to the amount of damage done, much is made by the speculators of the fact that the wings did not punch a larger hole in the building. What is in the wings of those planes? The fuel. The wings disintegrated on first contact, and the explosion started when the plane bottomed out just short of contact with the building and bounced into it. The construction crews were burned alive, not crushed by debris. Only 15 people died inside the building of the 185 total, 164 passengers and crew were on the plane, and the rest of the dead were workers outside. That side of the Pentagon was virtually empty and had been for some time because the building had been under reconstruction quite visibly on that side for 5-6 years and part of that was to reinforce the building from external attack. In fact some photos show the difference in damage on either side of that reinforcement work and it is striking. That plane went 270 degrees out of its way at high speed, a very sophisticated maneuver with no possible military advantage, to hit the empty side of the Pentagon. There, as in New York, I would argue that they minimized the number of deaths by timing and method of attack.
4. I thought that day when Flight 77 and its Dulles/LAX route were announced that a fellow researcher and dear friend had died because she rides that flight all the time as an airline attendant for American. As fate would have it she was home caring for her dying father that day and survived. But her friends did not. She was taken, with other attendants and ground crews who had worked that route into the crash site to view the wreckage. She clearly recognized parts of the plane she had ridden in hundreds of times and identified items. She was also shown autopsy photos and forensic evidence photos which included a severed arm. From the bracelet on the arm she knew it was the remains of her best friend at work.
There is no question that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. Remaining agnostic on this point also gives ammunition to the perpetrators of the stand-down and serves to discredit the other good work that continues to be done about the reality of what happened that day. It is my feeling that this thesis was actually part of an intentional disinformation campaign that spreads red herrings to discredit the real findings. "These conspiracy theorists will believe anything" say our detractors. Let's discover and present the hard facts and force the coincidence theorists to come up with plausible explanations instead of spewing out speculations we cannot back up and leaving ourselves on the defensive.
Facts:
1. NORAD and FAA knew of the multiple hijackings in progress by 8:25 am. Bush and Cheney agreed on issuing a shoot-down order against two planes still in attack mode after 9:05 am, when everyone in the country knew what the nature of the threat was. No such orders were conveyed to pilots or carried out if they were.
2. Standard hijack intercept procedures were not followed by NORAD or military ready-alert scrambler planes.
3. Virtually no defense of any kind was made inside the most restricted air space in the US, the P-56 area around DC and the Pentagon despite the presence of combat ready aircraft at local bases. Nor were other defense measures, including surface-to-air missiles at the White House and Pentagon deployed. There was a stand-down on 9/11.
4. Planes scrambled to intercept were sent long after the threat was known, so that they arrived too late to stop the attack. There were at least two cases of this: Otis AFB fighters who turned and targeted Flight 77 after reaching NYC too late, and Pomona NJ AFB combat planes on military exercises heading into NYC after 8:45 am, were called back to base or off the pursuit. There are additional indicators that many combat-ready planes and units were disarmed and called down shortly before 9/11.
5. Chemical and DNA analysis and weaponization traits of the anthrax mailed out to media and Democratic opponents of Bush clearly linked it to both a DIA project to develop "the next generation of anthrax weapon" and to the gates of Fr. Detrich, MD, a center for CBW research since the 1950s run by military intelligence.
Those alone are damning enough to bring them to their knees if thoroughly exposed and investigated. Let's work with what we know and hit the points they are most vulnerable on. In my view, most of the remaining questions are speculations and diversions, or at best leave us with the "intelligence failure" analysis intact for them to spin.
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