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--- Begin Message ----Caveat Lector- Bill, for some reason, you chose to copy and paste John Perna's screed which mentions me from conspiracy-net into this group.Consequently, I copy below my reply to John's message. For anyone interested in this debate, PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF THE FOLLOWING FACT: Neither John Perna or Bill Bacon have ever asked me any question whatsoever nor has either of them ever presented anything to dispute my evidence. They simply engage in ad hominem attacks against me or any critic that dares to challenge the Birch Society's scheme of things. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John: In message #16978 you make the following comment about me: "It is interesting that the "best shot" that he can take, at the John Birch Society, relates to an incident that is almost 40 years old. The simple fact that he has to go back almost 40 years would be a great commendation--even if this rubbish was true." My "best shot" (as you put it) is NOT based upon any single incident. Instead, my critique of the JBS is based upon an accumulation of evidence which reveals massive error by the JBS, and in the process, the JBS defamed good and decent Americans. The fundamental premises of the JBS were clearly stated by Robert Welch at the first National Council meeting in Chicago on January 9, 1960. Here is a pertinent excerpt: "Communist influences are now in almost complete working control of our government...Today, gentlemen, I can assure you, without the slightest doubt in my own mind, that the takeover at the top is, for all practical purposes, virtually complete. Whether you like it or not, or whether you believe it or not, our Federal Government is already, literally in the hands of the Communists." BY CONTRAST, J. Edgar Hoover reached a totally different conclusion as shown in this February 1962 statement: "The Communist Party in this country has attempted to infiltrate and subvert every segment of our society, but its continuing efforts have not achieved success of any substance. Too many self-styled experts on communism, without valid credentials and without any access whatsoever to classified factual data regarding the inner workings of the conspiracy, have engaged in rumor-mongering and hurling false and wholly unsubstantiated allegations against persons whose views differ from their own. This is dangerous business. It is divisive and unintelligent, and makes more difficult the task of the professional investigator." At the time Hoover made this statement, Robert Welch and the JBS were characterizing Hoover as our nation's foremost authority on Communism. There are comparable Hoover statements for the entire period up until his death in 1972. Furthermore, the FBI maintained a "Security Index" (SI) to track all persons that the Bureau considered subversive and worrisome from a security standpoint. As you might guess, most of the persons listed were Communists. One of the purposes of the SI was to identify those persons whom the FBI planned to arrest or keep under surveillance during a time of national emergency. In 1960, the year that Robert Welch asserted that "our Federal Government is already, literally in the hands of the Communists" the FBI's Security Index listed a total of TWENTY (20) people who worked in the entire U.S. Government at any level! Furthermore, the JBS judgment on such major topics as the civil rights movement during the 1960's was also explicitly repudiated by FBI investigations and informants. Ditto for JBS fabrications about the supposed Communist infiltration of the Dept. of Health, Education and Welfare (also mentioned by Welch at the first National Council meeting). Over the past 20 years I have acquired FBI and military intelligence files or documents on over 300 individuals and 200 organizations--- amounting to more than 200,000 pages of documents. In many instances, these documents also include input from city, county, and State law enforcement agencies who tracked radicals and had their own informants within suspect organizations. While I have not completed my research and analysis of all the material I have acquired, I can report to you that according to the FBI, the JBS was gravely mistaken in its conclusions about the prominent figures listed below (just a representative sample of the scores of persons on whom I have FBI files). The JBS, at one time or another, described all of these individuals as Communist, Communist sympathizers, or Communist agents. * Dean Acheson * Allen Dulles and John F. Dulles * Dwight D. and Milton Eisenhower * Christian Herter * Harry Overstreet * Nelson Rockefeller * Edmund G. Brown Sr. * John F. Kennedy * Senators Hubert Humphrey, Wayne Morse, Estes Kefauver, Stephen Young, Clifford Case. Furthermore, JBS described as "experts" on internal security matters numerous speakers and authors who wrote for JBS publications. Often, these individuals were described in highly derogatory terms in FBI memos because the Bureau considered them appallingly ignorant and/or more interested in generating income for themselves than in disseminating accurate information. In some instances, the person was characterized in FBI memos as mentally unbalanced! Examples include: Gary Allen Dan Smoot Julia Brown Medford Evans W. Cleon Skousen David Gumaer Gerald Kirk Alan Stang Matt Cvetic Frank Capell So, John, my "best shot" certainly DOES NOT rely on any single piece of evidence....but since you NEVER want to discuss evidence, I don't suppose any of this makes any difference to you. Ernie --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], William Bacon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > "I pledge Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to > the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one Nation under God,indivisible,with > liberty and justice for all." > > Remember:More people have died in Ted Kennedy's car than have died in > United States Commercial Nuclear Power plant operations > > visit my web site at > http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon My ICQ# is 79071904 > for a precise list of the powers of the Federal Government linkto: > http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon/Enumerated.html > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 06:51:41 -0400 > From: johnperna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [conspiracy-net] JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY EXPOSED > > In 1966, Revilo Oliver was kicked out the John Birch Society, > when he made an anti-Semitic speech. > Revilo Oliver was NOT a co-founder. > Robert Welch was the JBS's sole founder. > The first eleven members all joined at the initial introductory meeting. > > No one who can read, and write, and used a computer, > can assemble such a large body of disinformation by accident. > No one who can read, and write, can pretend to be that stupid. > That is only accomplished by a professional disinformer. > > John "Birdman (BIRD BRAIN)" Bryant wrote: > "...discovered that Robert Welch, the JBS's principal founder, > was controlled by Jews". > > Ernie Lazar's goal is to disinform, and to waste our time. > He HAS only done the latter. > > It is interesting that the "best shot" that he can take, > at the John Birch Society, > relates to an incident that is almost 40 years old. > The simple fact that he has to go back almost 40 years would be a great > commendation; > even if this rubbish was true. > > It is also interesting that the "problem"; > that he describes, > was the simple absence of anti-Semites, in the John Birch Society. > > By the way, please send me with the names, and addresses, of these Jews, > who "controlled" Robert Welch. > If they are still interested in The John Birch Society, > I will be glad to recruit them. > > It is amazing that our totalitarian adversaries simultaneously fuel > opposite, and contradictory, campaigns of disinformation, > against the John Birch Society. > In one place that say: > "Robert Welch, the JBS's principal founder, was controlled by Jews..." > In others places that try to infer that we are anti-Semitic. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joni Ferris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 12:43 AM > Subject: Re: [conspiracy-net] JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY EXPOSED > > > > > > The John Birch Society -- Exposed! > > > > By John "Birdman" Bryant > > > > I can see why he has the nickname "Birdman", HE WRITES LIKE A BIRD BRAIN! > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> Introductory note: In 1966, Prof Revilo Oliver (now > > >> deceased), who was co-founder (with eleven others) > > >> of > > >> the Birch Society and Associate Editor of its major > > >> organ, American Opinion, discovered that Robert > > >> Welch, > > > > the JBS's principal founder, was controlled by Jews, > > > > What bull! > > > > -- Joni > > > > > > > > There spread a cloud of dust along a plain, > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > (c) Conspiracy Net, 1998 - 2004 > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (c) Conspiracy Net, 1998 - 2004 > > To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> <FONT COLOR="#000099">Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! </FONT><A HREF="http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/zgSolB/TM";><B>Click Here!</B></A> --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== ctrl is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance�not soap-boxing�please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'�with its many half-truths, mis-directions and outright frauds�is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, ctrl gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. ctrl gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. There are two list running, [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] has unlimited posting and is more for discussion. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is more for informational exchange and has limited posting abilities. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Omimited posting abilities. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Om Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ctrl/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ======================================================================== Archives Available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ <A HREF="http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl</A> ======================================================================== To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
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