-Caveat Lector- from: prioryofsion digest 625 http://www.onelist.com The mailing list resource page can be found at the following address http://www.albino.com/circle/pos/ ---- an always interesting list. Om K ----- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 16:20:12 +0100 From: "Dxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: origins of the pos Txxxxxx wrote: > > From: Txxxxxxxx > > --- "D> wrote: > > From: "xxxxxxx > > > > Txxxxxxxx wrote: > > > > > Anyone's guess. Seventeen former Templar properties were acquired > by > > > Pierre Duese between 1316 and 1324, most bought with papal funding. > Almost as > > >though he was expecting to find something hidden away. No idea what > it was > >he found, though, if anything. Judging from the marriages > that the next six > > >generations of his descendants contracted, though, it could be that > he > > >found something important. > > > What noble family did e found and what > > sort of people did they marry - I'm poor > > on this area. > > Well, let me start by saying that the more likely explanation one would > reach by applying "Occam's Razor" (see, I learned a new term) is that > Pierre Duese may have just availed himself of the opportunity to pick > up a lot of cheap real estate... > > Pierre was the first Vicomte de Carmain. His son Arnaud married the > Isle-Jourdain heiress (cadet line of Toulouse); their son Arnaud II > married a Beaufort, sister and niece to two subsequent popes;their son > Arnaud III married an Albret; their son Hugues married Beatrix, the > Pereilles heiress; their son Jean married a Foix heiress; their son > Jean II married first another Foix heiress (his mother's cousin in > fact) and then a La Tour de Boulogne; and then their son Antoine > married a St. Etienne heiress. Whether by purchase or by marriage, by > the mid 1500s they had amassed a great deal of property with Templar or > Cathar history, including St. Felix de Carmain (now St. Felix > Lauragais) where two important Cathar conclaves were held. One > Foix-Carmain, Paul, Archbishop of Toulouse, brought Nostradamus to the > attention of his cousin Catherine de Medici; another, Aldoncine, one of > Catherine's ladies-in-waiting, was stepmother to the young Montgommerie > who killed Catherine's husband in accordance with Nostradamus' > "predictions". The La Tour d'Auvergne-Boulogne dukes of Bouillon were > sufficiently interested in this family and their property to buy most > of it up in the 1600s, but they never found anything. > > Pierre's brother, John XXII, had been Bishop of Porto in Portugal at > one point in his career, and he was the pope who chartered the Order of > Christ in Portugal, the only body that can authentically trace it's > origins to the Templars. It would seem that Pierre was being opportunist, encouraged by his brothers partiality for the Templars - there could be absolutely nothing in this as John XXII could just have been trying to preserve his ideal of the templars and partially trusting his family to do it. Saying that, its a vary interesting mix of families - the Montgomery in question is a very close scion of the scottish noble family connected with the freemasons; he or his children actually returned to Scotland where they held a lot of political influence. Then there are the La Tours, d'Albrets and Foix - note the latter two became the ruling families of Navarre overlapping with old Septimania while the former one of the leading noble families of France. The Foix-d'Albret heritage passed to the Bourbons who in the person of Henri IV became king of France. There is allsorts of weird politics going on here I am not sure I have my head around. Can you remind me if there were any connections between the Navarrese families and the Guise-Lorraine faction? Donal ===== Message: 6 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:39:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Txxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: origins of the pos --- "Dxxxxxxxx> wrote: > From: "Dxxxxxxxxxxx> > > It would seem that Pierre was being opportunist, > encouraged by his brothers partiality for the > Templars - there could be absolutely nothing in this > as John XXII could just have been trying to preserve > his ideal of the templars and partially trusting his > family to do it. Yes, perhaps you're right. :) > Saying that, its a vary interesting mix of families > - the Montgomery in question is a very close scion of the scottish noble family connected with the freemasons; he or his children actually returned to Scotland where they held a lot of political influence. No, the man in question, Gabriel de Lorges de Montgommerie died without heirs, and the whole shebang went to his niece Marguerite. She married Jacques de Durfort, Marquis de Duras in 1603, and their descendants became the Dukes of Durfort-Duras and of Lorges-Quintin in France. One later descendant did marry the English Countess of Feversham but he died childless in 1709. Related to the Scots Montgomeries, yes, but this line stayed in France. > Then there are the La Tours, d'Albrets and Foix - note the latter two became the ruling families of Navarre overlapping with old Septimania while the former one of the leading noble families of France. Briefly, yes, when Gaston IV of Foix married Princess Eleonore of Navarre, of the old Evreux-Champagne line, who became Queen of Navarre in 1479. The only Foix actually to rule were her grandchildren - Francois-Phoebus, followed by his sister Catherine, married to Jean d'Albret. Then came their son Henri d'Albret and his daughter Jeanne, married to Antoine de Bourbon, Duke de Vendome. Their son Henri de Bourbon succeeded his mother as King of Navarre on her death in 1572 (?) and to the throne of France in 1589 on the death of the last Valois, Henri III, son of Henri II and Catherine de Medici. <snip> > There is allsorts of weird politics going on here I > am not sure I have my head around. Probably the weirdest concerned Catherine de Medici, who was the Comtesse d'Auvergne and head of the House of La Tour d'Auvergne-Boulogne in her own right, through her mother. As such she was the senior descendant of Godfrey de Bouillon (or more specifically, of his brother Eustache) in France at the time. She was the last of her line, excepting her children, but the collateral lines were bellying-up to the bar just in case Catherine's brood died out, which they eventually did. The next line in the succession of Auvergne was that of La Tour de Boulogne de Montgascon, which was represented by the descendants of two sisters - Anne, who married a La Tour d'Oliergues and whose great-grandson was Henri de Bourbon's close friend the Vicomte de Turenne; and Jeanne, who married Jean II de Foix, Comte de Carmain and whose senior descendant was Catherine's own lady-in-waiting Aldoncine, possibly co-conspirator in the plot to assassinate Catherine's husband Henri II. There is a great deal of confusion over which of the two Montgascon sisters was the eldest - Anne or Jeanne - but no illusions about which of their descendants had better connections to claim the inheritance after Catherine's death. As soon as Catherine breathed her last, the Vicomte de Turenne amended his surname from La Tour d'Oliergues to La Tour d'Auvergne, which was ratified by his boss Henri IV when he became king of France. Never mind the fact that Catherine still had living children, Henri III and Henri de Bourbon's repudiated wife Marguerite, who actually received the barony of La Tour on her mother's death and ceded it to the young Louis XIII when she died. Anyway, Aldoncine's descendants, the Castelnau de Clermont-Lodeves, maintained that they were the rightful heirs to the partimony of La Tour d'Auvergne until they died out in 1715. The La Tour d'Auvergnes of Bouillon died out in the males lines in 1802, the last duke having diverted the succession to the next senior La Tour line in precedence to the later female lines inherited by the Tremoilles and Rohan-Rohans. That lasted for maybe a decade before his heir committed suicide (without heirs) and another line, La Tour d'Apchier - which branched off well before the La Tour and Auvergne-Boulogne lines were joined in 1389, had their names changed to La Tour d'Auvergne-Lauragais and wangled the title of prince out of the Pope in 1854. Interestingly enough, "Prince" Michael of Albany claims his grandmother was a member of this family, which the family strongly denies. > Can you remind me if there were any connections > between the Navarrese families and the > Guise-Lorraine faction? Not that I'm aware of. Neither family held the throne of Navarre for very long, only about a century between the two. Txxxxxxxx ----- Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Omnia Bona Bonis, All My Relations. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End Kris DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ======================================================================== Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ======================================================================== To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
