-Caveat Lector- this is a transcript of a Voice of America radio interview that the US govt tried to stop INTERVIEW WITH WEI JINGSHENG12/10/97 Q: Mr. Wei Jingsheng, thank you very much for accepting an interview with VOA today. We hope that through this interview, the millions of VOA listeners across China will have an opportunity to understand what kind of person Mr. Wei Jingsheng is and why he persisted in holding his beliefs. I would like to first ask that, 18 years ago, you were merely an anonymous electrician in the Beijing Zoo and spent your spare time writing articles calling for democracy and human rights and now, 18 years later after you were released from the prison, your name is printed in all the major newspapers in various languages in the world, your image is on all kinds of TV shows, leaders of China and the United States, two of the big countries in the world, talked about and negotiated your fate. Having been through all this, why do think people pay so much attention to the fate of Wei Jingsheng? A: Because... I believe that I always care about the Chinese people and that's probably why they also care about me. Because... I think that when the two heads of state talked about me, they were not thinking of me as an individual because I am merely a very ordinary person. They were mainly concerned that I represent those ordinary people who long for democracy, freedom and respect for human rights. Those people actually consist of more than 90 percent of the population, including the majority of the communists. They all have this kind of desire. Therefore, although there has never been any vote by show of hands, my fate is closely linked with that of 1.2 billion people. This is why this issue has become very important. But I never consider this to be my personal issue. Q: I am rather curious how you took this road, a very dangerous road. After graduation from the middle school, you became a Red Guard, joined the military service, and worked as an electrician. What personal experiences drove you unto this road? Was it after you read any books, met somebody, or saw something that you took this road? A: The situation in China then is known to all. There were very few books. Very few books could be found. Really limited. Apart from novels, most of the books I read about political theories were actually Marxist books. However, as long as you think in terms of the future of mankind and the conscience of the people, whatever road is taken, the destination will be the same. If I may quote a Western proverb: All roads lead to Rome. The most important thing that first broke my blind belief in the Communist Party was the constant changing faces and positions of Mao Zedong and Madam Mao during the Cultural Revolution. I was really disappointed and shocked to find that the Communist Party was not as good as it said it was. They were not working for the interests of the people but for themselves. I started thinking about a lot of problems since then. I devoured all the books I could get, day and night. More importantly, after that, we were sent to the countryside before I joined the military service. While in the countryside, I saw in reality what would be beyond my wildest imagination, all the great disasters the Communist Party brought to the people. While in the military service, I heard about all kinds of real situations in various places from other soldiers who were just peasants before joining the military service. Of course, my unit moved around the country a lot, thus giving me opportunities to see different places with my own eyes. In Shaanbei (Central China), residents had only about 100 kilograms of food, mostly yam, for the entire year. I saw how people were surviving in the extremely harsh environment, not at all like the beautiful picture the Communist Party had described. All this made me think more deeply, suspecting that the problems might not be that simple. It was not that this person or that person was bad, but probably there was something wrong with the wholesystem. After years of thinking, I reached the conclusion in the mid 70's that the Chinese people would soon fall into great miseries unless the social system is made democratic and the Chinese people could control their own fate instead of letting it be controlled by a small number of people. That was the main reason that I got involved in the Democracy Wall Movement. Q: But almost immediately after you took this very dangerous road, you were arrested in 1979. Although you were released for a short period afterwards, the Chinese authorities put you in the prison again. I understand that later in your prison life, you were put in a cell with transparent glass wall on 2 sides (Wei: on 4 sides), yes, 4 sides, with the light on 24 hours a day. You had no contact with other people. During such a long time in the prison like this, I wonder how you managed to maintain your psychological balance and your sanity to prevent yourself from becoming insane? A: I believe that a very important issue is that an individual has got to have some beliefs instead of bothering about all kinds of trifle matters. Before getting involved in the Democracy Wall Movement, I was probably different from most other people who were unaware of the potential dangers in future. But I knew the Communist Party only too well because I myself was brought up within Party circles. I told my friends also involved in the publication of the Exploration Magazine, "If we are to start it, we should get fully prepared. Without this determination, you'd better distance yourselves from this magazine. We can still be friends and you can still help us. But I can tell all of you clearly, if we start this Exploration Magazine to speak the truth for the Chinese people, we will have to face the risk of death, because according to the usual practice of the Party in the past, there will be little chance of letting you stay alive." So many others who were far more moderate than us were put to death. I told others that our activities were entirely open and that if we spoke, we would have to speak the truth. Let's get rid of the round-about ways. Let's not rebel with the intention to surrender later in exchange for personal gains. I said, either we do nothing at all, or we do it for the ordinary people even if we may have to sacrifice ourselves. In the end, three of my friends were as determined as I was and the four of us started the Exploration Magazine. Only with this kind of determination could I later resist all the methods aimed at driving me crazy mentally or exhausting me physically. Well, little could be done to stop the physical deterioration which goes by the natural law. Q: Were you often beaten up in prison? A: Er...Yes, very often. From early 80's to just before my last release.... I guess everyone knows about the last event because my younger brother got the news out. It was quite often during the entire imprisonment, but the most important thing is that various methods were used to torture (me) physically, causing my health to deteriorate. I was healthy and strong when I went into the prison. I thought: well, either I would be executed immediately, or, with my health, I could hold on at least for one or two decades even if the prison was as bad as that of the Nationalist government or the Qing Dynasty. But in fact, the communist prison has many cunning or even scientific tricks to ruin one's health. I guess only when I describe them in detail in my book can people really understand all that. It cannot be explained in just a few simple sentences because it is hard for ordinary people to imagine how cruel the methods are unless one has experienced them in real life. Now my health is ruined and most of my teeth are gone. What you see are my dentures. Q: Under such circumstances you were still constantly challenging the supreme authority in China. Last night, I was reading your book "Letters from the Prison." Since 1981, you wrote a series of letters to Hu Yaobang, Zhao Ziyang and Deng Xiaoping. During your short freedom after 14 and a half years of imprisonment, you kept challenging Deng Xiaoping. Do you just doubt authority out of your nature and therefore, you are willing to challenge authority? A: No, no.... I have another view about authority. Authority is a part of a social group, a collective group or what is called in the term of sociology "community", human community, no matter how big or small it may be. It needs authority to sustain itself and cannot depend entirely on the rule of law and punishment. Because it needs people's willingness, therefore authority is needed. But for authority, there is the problem of metabolism. When it has become outdated, the old authority will need to be replaced by newer and wiser authority. My personal belief is that the democratic system provides a legitimate, peaceful and smooth process to ensure that the transition of authority is free of violent confrontation. Without this rational and legitimate process, there are bound to be fierce conflicts when a new authority replaces an old one. Generally speaking, an old authority is never willing to exit the arena, because after a long period of time, the individuals involved tend to regard the social responsibilities associated with their authority as their private belongings. This situation is very dangerous to society. In undemocratic countries, transition of authority is often violent and can be a matter of life and death. In Chinese history, there have been incidents when so many people were killed that blood was everywhere. This is great loss and turbulence to society. So, from this aspect, the democratic system, at least the democratic system we see, is superior to all other systems. Q: Why do you think the Chinese government can exercise such strong and overwhelming authority over the Chinese people? Why don't thepeople...? A: The military forces and police are the main important tools of the Communist Party. On the other hand, the Party is quite smart in that it knows that it is insufficient to oppress the people just with the military and the police. Therefore, it has adopted a method taken from the traditional practice. Of course, dictatorships of many countries have used it. That is the policy of keeping people in the blind. They try every means to keep the people in the dark and prevent them from knowing the truth. That is why I believe it is extremely important for broadcasting stations like yours and other media to get the truth across to the Chinese people, far more important than the military and police forces. Q: If some Chinese say: after the 18 years of reform, I am today earning more money than my wildest dreams in the past, I can have color TV and refrigerator. With a bit of good luck, I can even send my kids to study in Western countries. They seem to be quite happy with the slow reform in China. What's wrong with that way of thinking? A: The main trend of the reform in China is certainly towards democracy, even the Communist Party admits this point. The country is moving step by step towards democracy. But an important issue is that the Communist Party not only is unwilling to leave the historical arena but also made laws that give the Party the powerful position. If you do not give in to the Party's indefinite authority, you are in violation of the law. It can then explain to the Western world, just as Xiao Yang and Tang Guoqiang did not long ago by saying that Wei Jingsheng is a criminal. Of course, in Western countries, the term criminal bears a pretty bad meaning and criminals deserve to bepunished. This is one of the characteristics of the Communist Party's rule of law which does not aim to maintain social order and stability but to maintain its one-party dictatorship. It is extremely difficult to improve this kind of situation. It is impossible just to rely on economic progress. Some countries are quite prosperous but not democratic. After all, when the United States set up its democratic system at the beginning, all the material conditions were far more backward compared with that China has nowadays. This is not an economic issue. The social system is closely linked with people's lives, a part of it. There is no way that political progress naturally follows economic progress. This argument seems a bit vague. Q: In promoting development in democracy and human rights in China, you repeatedly said that pressure from the international community needs to be constantly in place. Pressure can take various forms, such quiet diplomacy, public debate just like what President Clinton and Jiang Zemin had at their press conference, dissemination of truth by broadcasting stations like VOA, or sanctions or the threat of sanctions to force China to change its policies. Which do you think is the most appropriate and effective? A: Well, I believe if you beg the Communist Party to willingly abide any rules, it will probably ignore you completely. The fact that they can now come to the United States to talk with President Clinton either in public or in private about improvement of human rights and democracy is exactly because the international community has exercised tremendous pressure. That is why they want to talk. If it is the ordinary Chinese who have no rights and can in no way exert any direct pressure, just when in the past few decades did the Communist Party ever want to talk with them? If it does not want to talk with its own people, why does it want to do so with political leaders of foreign countries? It is obvious that there must be pressure and the pressure must be maintained before the Communist Party can be made a bit more aware that it needs to more or less respect human rights. Q: Under this kind of pressure, what role do you think you will play in the future? To be more specific, you are now in the United States which is a very open society with freedom of speech, what methods will you use to play your special role in the process? A: I am afraid that I cannot be very specific about the methods because I have been here for only a short period and I knew little about the situation here before I came. I am still trying to learn more. But I think an important thing is to let more ordinary people in foreign countries, in Western countries know more about the true situation in China because the living environment and behavior under democratic systems are entirely different from those under authoritarian dictatorships. Therefore, a lot of happenings are incomprehensible in the eye of American people, government officials and congressmen and they may even misunderstand them. Under this kind of circumstances, it is extremely important to explain the truth to them and help them understand what is happening in China. I think I will first work towards that direction. Q: Have you already begun contacting American government officials and congressmen? You just met with President Clinton yesterday. Have you started this kind of activities? A: I think I will take every opportunity to help them know about the true situation in China. In addition, another important thing for me is to write a book as soon as possible about my experiences and sufferings in the prison so others can try to understand them. Q: We all look forward to reading your book. Now a more specific question on the U.S. China policy. In May and June very year, there is always a significant debate in the U.S. as for whether to extend the Most Favored Nations treatment to China. On this issue, when in next May and June to debate whether extension of MFN should be granted, what suggestions would you make to American Congressional leaders and government officials? Would you suggest cutting off, or threatening to cut off the MFN to force China to make substantial improvement in human rights? A: The issue of MFN is very complex. It is hard to have the best of both worlds. As I understand it, the issue of Most Favored Nation treatment.... In 1994 when Communist officials negotiated with me, they told me directly that MFN was the most important issue. It is nearly a matter of life and death for the Communist Party.... Q: The Communist officials actually talked about this with you? A: Yes. They don't want to lose MFN. They told me that they knew that I didn't want China really to lose this treatment either. If it is lost, the Communist Party cannot survive. But more importantly, the real sufferers will be ordinary people. Therefore, we certainly don't want to see that. But on the other hand, it is the economic means that is the most effective way to pressure the Communist Party. Only economic pressure can force it to face the issues. Therefore, I believe that the United States should maintain this pressure, this main pressure, otherwise there is no way to force the Communist Party to respect the basic principles of mankind. I also believe that when absolutely necessary, if the Communist Party simply ignores pressure from the International Community and continues to violate human rights on a large scale, for example, imprisoning large number of political prisoners and refusing to release them, beating up and arresting workers who hold demonstrations in streets as it did recently, if this kind of behavior continues, then it is absolutely necessary to cancel the MFN treatment, to warn China that if you continue with what you are doing and pay no attention to the basic principles of mankind, you shall fall down. If the Communist Party doesn't respect the rights of the Chinese people, then it has no right to take advantage of the American market to fatten its ownpurse. In the current trade between China and the United States, the bilateral trade, most opportunities are actually controlled by the Chinese Communist Party who has the biggest share of the benefits. And most of the profits from China-U.S. trade have been collected by the Chinese Communist Party and its members. Ordinary Chinese people benefit very little from it. On the other hand, by controlling so many trade opportunities, they can force many American businessmen to lobby in the United States for the Communist Party. Therefore, the current trade system is the cause why sanctions will not be effective and ordinary people will have to suffer. I sincerely hope the bilateral trade system will be made more rational; at least the Communist Party should not be allowed to control all the trade opportunities. This is so unreasonable, so unfair. Q: In your visit to Washington this time, have you met any U.S.congressmen? A: I have met some, but all are private meetings. Nothing official. Q: Now let's talk about your life after you came to the United States. You are now a visiting scholar at the Columbia University. How do you spend your day? What do you do? We only noticed that published articles in the New York Times and the Houston Chronicle but how do you spend you day? Can you talk about it? A: Actually it does not take much time to write those articles. I spend most of the time to meet friends from all walks of life, including my visit to your place (VOA). There are so many friends from so many places. Therefore it takes a lot of my time and energy. I am not in good health and can easily become exhausted after some activities. I am quite weak. Q: You are being watched so closely by the media and society that you are followed wherever you go. For example, when you visit us here today, you have two bodyguards and other people looking after your schedule, etc., I wonder how you cope with your daily life? Do you get bored sometimes by being followed and watched by so many people all the time? Wouldn't you like to take a walk in the streets of New York and see what the United States is like? A: I certainly would. All human beings are the same. We all enjoy freedom. But in my case, I survived all this after getting involved in the Democracy Wall Movement, perhaps my life doesn't belong to me anymore and has become a public possession. Therefore I don't mind at all that people take my time. I am not bored at all. Q: Is there difference between what you have seen since you came here and the United States in your imagination before? A: Quite different. Just like what I said to my friends yesterday at Mrs. Kennedy's home when I was asked the same question, the biggest difference is... the propaganda by the Communist Party which is supported by the impressions left by some American businessmen in China is that Americans are interested in only money. As for issues like human rights, they sometimes shout some slogans and take some actions but everything seems to focus on money. Although I didn't believe this, later I sort of accepted it half-heartedly. But after I came to the United States, all the Americans I have met, from the president to ordinary workers like nurses in the hospital and waiters/waitresses in restaurants, are concerned about human rights in China, I feel, not out of self interest. No matter how you look at it, they cannot gain any personal benefits from it. They show their concern out of their caring feelings as human beings. I am amazed, excited, and very pleased about it. My original logical thinking seems to be correct and the propaganda of the Communist Party and the perception it created seem to be entirely wrong. I sincerely hope you can convey the truth about American people to the people on China's mainland, so that they will understand that people in the United States as well as in Europe and other countries are concerned about human rights, safety and prosperity of Chinese people. At least we can say most of their concern is not out of their self interest. Q: Before the end of this program, I wonder if you want, via VOA, to talk to millions of listeners in China. What do you want to say? Some Chinese listeners share your political views and beliefs and many others may not think too much about democracy and human rights but are busy with their life, making money, enjoying food, and supporting their families. What do you want to say to them? A: For friends of the latter category, I don't think I need to talk much because when they try to win rights to eat food and make money, they will realize how important the issue of human rights is. The Communist Party will educate them. In fact, I myself was educated by the Communist Party in a way, in a negative way, before I realized all their reasonings. For truth, no matter the education is positive or negative, it will lead to the same result. As for those friends who share the same beliefs, I would like to say that let's get rid of all the personal grudges and resentment, or at least keep them to a minimum, because our nation, our people are in a dangerous and miserable situation. About one billion of our compatriots are not sure if they can survive. At this moment, are those personal interests still so important? I don't think they are very important. I hope others are willing to follow me to sacrifice themselves for the 1.2 billion Chinese people. Let's give up some personal interests and some personal freedom and devote the majority of our lives as public possessions for the happiness of the Chinese people, so that our nation and our people can have a future. This is all I want to say. Q: Thank you, Wei Jingsheng.A: Thanks for giving me this opportunity. (end transcript) DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. 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