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CLAIM (32)
Insults Against Blessed Mary Sanhedrin 106a. Says Jesus mother was a
whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the
harlot with carpenters."
RESPONSE (1)
Basically, the anti-Semites have combed through to find derogatory
statements, and then claim that they must be "about" Jesus.
"Jesus" and "Mary" (Yeshua and Miriam) were extremely common Jewish
names. A few of these passages actually use those names (though none
uses both). Most use *neither* name.
Given how severely Jews were persecuted by Christians, it would be
surprising if absolutely no bitter statements were made about Jesus in
the Talmud. What is surprising is how few there are that even *might*
qualify as such. And the most likely candidates are simply assertions of
immorality on Mary's part - which is an unavoidable conclusion unless
you believe in the virgin birth.
So - essentially the only thing that probably remains out of all this is
that the Talmud denies the virgin birth. Big whoop.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Royce Buehler)
<5iroi7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RESPONSE (2)
There is no reference to anyone of this name on this page. In a section
of agada which describes Bilaam it is noted that he was once a prophet
but that after misusing his powers he became a mere soothsayer. The
Talmud quotes a common folk saying current at the time to describe such
a descent in status: 'from [being a wife of] royalty [she descended] to
be a prostitute to sailors'. Another reading is 'Oyazen [the name of a
Persian woman] was the wife of a noble and became the wife of a sailor'.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (32a)
Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the
"uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam
the hairdresser," had sex with many men.
RESPONSE
No such text exists in the standard Talmuds. There is reference to a
certain Ben Stada who according to R. Eliezer brought knowledge of
witchcraft out of Egypt by making marks on his body. The other sages
dismissed Ben Stada as a fool. In some versions of the Talmud there is
statement to the effect that this person's mother (Miriam Magdala) was
not faithful to her husband. Some commentators specifically point out
for identification purposes that this person was executed in Lod and is
not
identifiable with anyone mentioned in Christian traditions. The Talmud
also notes that the name Miriam Magdala was a very common one.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (33)
Gloats over Christ Dying Young A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over
the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam
(Jesus) was?-He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is
written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it
follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."
RESPONSE (1)
Notice the "Jesus" in parentheses? The text does not say "Jesus". It
says "Balaam". How to trump up a charge of blasphemy, in one easy
lesson.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Royce Buehler)
<5iroi7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RESPONSE (2)
The Talmud states that the wicked Bilaam (Numbers 23:24) died after
living only half his allotted time span, in accordance with the
statement in Psalms 55:24, that the wicked do not survive half their
allotted life span. The commentary of Rashi makes it clear that the
reference is to the biblical Bilaam.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (34)
Says Jesus was a Sorcerer Sanhedrin 43a . Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in
footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced
sorcery.
RESPONSE (1)
It also says *how* he was executed - not by crucifixion. This isn't the
same "Yeshu". Common name, different guy. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Royce Buehler) <5iroi7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RESPONSE (2)
Standard versions of the Talmud do not mention anyone with this name.
There is a version which mentions Yeshu HaNotzri who was executed and
who had five students who were also executed. The description of this
Yeshu HaNotzri indicates that he was executed by stoning and that for
forty days before his execution announcements were made looking for
evidence in his favor. The Talmud also indicates that this Yeshu
HaNotzri was extremely friendly with the local Roman government. The
passage describes the way in which the followers of this Yeshu claim
that their names (Mathai, Natai, Netzer, Boni and Toda) give them
immunity from the death penalty and the way they were answered (by
passages from the bible connecting their names with death or execution).
As the description of the person involved does not fit the descriptions
given in Christian traditions it would appear that it is not referring
to the same person.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (35)
Horrible Blasphemy of Our Lord Gittin 57a . Says Jesus (see footnote #4)
is being boiled "hot excrement".
RESPONSE (1)
Nope. The name "Yeshu" occurs in only one edition - probably written in
by one scribe with a grudge. The actual text concerns "Balaam" - and the
story is being told by a rabbi who, as I understand it, died before
Jesus was even born.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Royce Buehler)
<5iroi7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RESPONSE (2)
In the standard Talmud this remarkable passage of agada is based on the
vision of a non-Jew, Onkelos, who later converted to Judaism:
"Onkelos the son of Kalonikos the nephew of Titus wished to convert."
The Talmud relates that he used witchcraft to raise Titus, his wicked
uncle, from the dead and asked him whether he should convert to Judaism.
His uncle was so filled with hatred against the Jews that he advised his
nephew to be hostile to them, despite the fact that they are so close to
G-d and despite the fierce punishment he endured after his death for his
own hostility to Israel. Onkelos then called up Bilaam who had similar
comments. Then he raised up 'the sinners of Israel' who advised him to
join Israel since anyone who troubled the Jews is considered as if he
troubled G-d. Onkelos asked what punishment the sinners of Israel had to
endure and was told they were judged in boiling excrement as is fitting
for all those who ridicule the words of the sages.
It may indeed be the case that there are manuscripts which name Yeshu
HaNotzri as one of the sinners of Israel in the context of this passage
but it is not clear who that person was (see item [CLAIM 34] above).
More generally it may be said that while Judaism differs sharply from
Christianity in many matters of theology and interpretation of
historical events, attacking the founder of the Christian faith as a
wicked person is not a central or even peripheral element of Jewish
theology.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (36)
Sanhedrin 43a . Jesus deserved execution: "On the eve of the Passover,
Yeshu was hanged...Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense
could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)?"
RESPONSE (1)
According to Jewish law there is no hanging or crucifying as a death
penalty. The dead bodies are hanged after the execution for 5-10 minutes
in order to publicize the execution (see Talmud Sanhedrin ibid.). Jesus
was killed on the cross, a well known Roman way of execution, the Romans
at the time regarded him as a heretic. After he died, he was taken down
and buried by his Jewish followers. The Jewish court immediately dug him
up and hung him for 10 minutes then buried him again to prove that he is
dead and that his body did not rise to heaven.
E.S./Edited David S. Maddison ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RESPONSE (2)
In the common versions of the Talmud this quote does not exist.
Generally speaking the person Yeshu referred to in Talmudic texts cannot
be absolutely identified with anyone described in Christian tradition.
See also comments to item [CLAIM 35] above.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (37)
Attacks Christians and their Books Rosh Hashanah 17a . Christians
("minim") and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be
punished there for all generations (see footnote #11 for the definition
of minim).
RESPONSE (1)
"Minim" does not mean "Christians". It means Jewish heretics. A Jewish
Christian would have been regarded as one of the "minim", but not a
Gentile Christian. Since the Talmudic material mainly comes from the
period 100BC to 100AD, when the Christians did not exist or were a tiny
sect, most of the references to "minim" had Sadduccees in mind. And
again, this is the opinion of one rabbi, recorded along with the other
opinions. Nothing binding about it.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Royce Buehler)
<5iroi7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RESPONSE (2)
At Rosh Hashanah 17a the Talmud quotes agadic passages regarding
punishment after death. The passages describe those who will undergo a
short period of punishment, those who will suffer for a longer period
and those who will suffer eternally. In this latter group are Jewish
heretics of various categories, the religious leaders of idol
worshipping religions, those who abuse their authority and those who
mislead the public and cause them to sin, such as Jeroboam.
With respect to the religious leaders of the pagans, Meiri, one of the
most famous commentators on the Talmud wrote (about 700 years ago): "...
we have already explained that ..... [the references are to] the nations
of long ago who were not bound by the ways of religion but were deeply
involved in the worship of idols and stars ..." (Meiri at AZ 26).
In one version of this text this group includes Jews who have betrayed
their own religion. According to the Ein Yaakov these apostates are the
Sadduccees. In the uncensored text of Rashi (the prime commentator on
the Talmud) these apostates are described as the students of Yeshu
HaNotzri who have twisted the words of the Torah. This version is not
found in standard Rashi commentaries on the Talmud. See comments to item
[CLAIM 35].
The teaching is directed against Jews who become apostates, not against
Christians. In fact the Talmud makes it plain in another passage
(Shabbat 116a) that there is a significant difference between those who
knowingly choose heresy and those who are born into it and commentators
also emphasize this important distinction.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (38)
Sanhedrin 90a . Those who read the New Testament (uncanonical books, see
footnote #9) will have no portion in the world to come.
RESPONSE (1)
Yup. Jews think they're right and we're wrong. That's why they're Jews.
If they thought we were right and they were wrong, they'd be Christians.
Why is this shocking? Incidentally, it applies only to those *Jews* who
read heretical books. And the New Testament is not named explicitly.
Sanhedrin 90a just says Jews should stick to Jewish scripture. It
doesn't single out Christianity in particular.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Royce Buehler)
<5iroi7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
NOTE
The footnote #9 referred to was not included in the quoted document and
seems to be be derived from the original "Facts are Facts" booklet.
David S. Maddison ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RESPONSE (2)
In this passage Rabbi Akiva held that those who read 'external books'
forfeit their place in the World to Come. The Talmud discusses (San
100b) the exact meaning of 'external books' and suggests they refer to
the books
of the Sadduccees. (The books of the new Christian religion did not
exist at the time of R. Akiva, certainly not in their present form, but
it is quite likely that the reference is to all works which interpret
the Written Torah in a manner opposed to that transmitted by the sages.)
Commentators point out that the term 'reading' is meant to be understood
as reading these works on a permanent basis, and not as reviewing them
for a legitimate purpose.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (39)
Shabbath 116a (p. 569). Jews must destroy the books of the Christians,
i.e. the New Testament. See footnote #6.
RESPONSE (1)
This is wrong. On the Shabbat [Sabbath] a Jew may not put out fire
unless there is danger to a life (Jew or non-Jew of course). Now the
sages made a decree stating that a Jew may not save any item from a
non-dangerous fire as he might come to extinguish it in his plight. The
only article one is permitted to save is the Holy Torah scrolls written
on parchment by hand. But Jewish prayer books, Jewish literature books,
Jewish law books, printed Bibles, story books, encyclopedias etc. and
also the new testament may not be saved from the fire on Shabbat.
E.S. / Edited David S. Maddison [EMAIL PROTECTED])
NOTE
The footnote #6 referred to was not included in the quoted document and
seems to be be derived from the original "Facts are Facts" booklet.
David S. Maddison ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RESPONSE (2)
The Talmud discusses the prohibition against carrying on the Sabbath in
certain areas and deals with the question of saving Torah scrolls from a
fire in such areas. In certain cases it is permitted to save a Torah
scroll from a fire by carrying it on the Sabbath and the Talmud
discusses whether this rule applies to Torah scrolls written by Jewish
heretics ('minim'). The passage reports a comment from Rabbi Tarfon that
if these scrolls came to his hands he would burn them despite the fact
that G-d's name is written in them.
This passage has been understood by the codifiers of Jewish law to deal
with a Torah scroll containing G-d's name when the scribe who wrote such
name had heretical thoughts when he wrote G-d's name. Where the
intention was idolatrous then the Torah scroll should be burned. There
are stringent rules regarding who may write a Torah scroll and how it is
to be written. It is thanks to the great care taken by scribes
throughout the ages that we have accurate bibles today. If a Torah
scroll was not written with idolatrous intentions then it can be
retained and read privately no matter who wrote it (Aruch HaShulchan YD
281).
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (40)
Israel Shahak reports that the Zionists burned hundreds of New Testament
books in Occupied Palestine on March 23, 1980 (cf. Jewish History,
Jewish Religion, p. 21).
RESPONSE (1)
Even if this was true, what is the problem with some people disposing of
books that they disagree with, particularly as the "New Testament"
claims to supercede the Covenant that the Jews have with G-d with a new
covenant? The NT that has been used to justify the mass murder of Jews
for centuries. Of course, book burning is, under normal circumstances, a
bad thing, but this was one single book of which hundreds of millions of
copies are in circulation. They weren't burning libraries or anything.
David S. Maddison ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RESPONSE (2)
This 'report' has nothing to do with the Talmud. Israel Shahak is a
contemporary Israeli writer well known for his virulent hatred of
Judaism and Zionism. His writings are featured on anti-Semitic web sites
such as Radio Islam.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (41)
Sick and Insane Teachings Gittin 69a . To heal his flesh a Jew should
take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix it with
honey and eat it.
RESPONSE (1)
A typical "home remedy" of those times. At least in Judaism the practise
of medicine was based on some recognition of "cause and effect" and any
attempt to use magic and sorcery to cure sickness was strictly
prohibited by Jews, unlike their neighbours. Also see "Health and
Medicine in the Jewish Tradition", David M. Feldman, 1986, ISBN
0-8245-0707-X
David S. Maddison ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RESPONSE (2)
See introductory remarks concerning the enigmatic forms of expression
used in agadic passages. In Gittin 69a the Talmud discusses the medical
practices and beliefs of the time of the Talmud. The commentaries (Tos
at MK 11a) make it clear to any reader that such remedies have not been
held to be effective or applicable for many centuries. To the extent
that these remedies are not metaphorical agadic passages they were
included in the Talmud to show that the sages were well-versed with the
medical knowledge of their age, and not as religiously sanctioned
medicine. In fact when it became apparent that such remedies had no
healing powers it became forbidden by Jewish law to use them.
See also remarks under item [CLAIM 55] below.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (42)
Shabbath 41a. The law regulating the rule for how to urinate in a holy
way is given.
RESPONSE (1)
The Jews believed you should try to do everything in a way that was
pleasing to God. Why is that "sick and insane"?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Royce Buehler)
<5iroi7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RESPONSE (2)
The Torah teaches Jews to be holy in all their ways.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (43)
Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the
animals in the Garden of Eden.
RESPONSE (1)
This is a famous misinterpretation of the passage, as the word "Daas" is
interpreted sometimes as intercourse but it really means
"understanding". So the real explanation is that he came to understand
their spiritual existence and thus he called them proper names.
E.S./Edited David S. Maddison ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RESPONSE (2)
This passage of the Talmud describes various teachings in the name of
Rabbi Elazar on the importance of marriage and the great merit of having
a good wife. Rabbi Elazar shows how these ideas are contained in the
biblical text (Gen. 3:20-23). Verse 23 reads "This time it is bone of my
bones and flesh of my flesh" and Rabbi Elazar states that since the
verse teaches us that 'this time' Adam found a mate, there is an
implication that there were previous times when he did not find a mate,
and he states that Adam "came on" to all the animals but his "mind was
not satisfied" until he "came on" Eve. In Hebrew the term "came on" is
often used to describe intercourse and this is the simplistic literal
translation of this passage.
This passage is a classical example of agadic literature and must be
understood metaphorically (as the commentators point out). One
commentator (Anaf Yosef) suggests that this agada teaches the importance
of marriage. He explains that Adam reflected that the purpose of animal
mating is primarily for the propagation of the animal species. Adam's
"mind was not satisfied" with this concept of mating because, as the
commentator explains, "... the mating of a man is different [from that
of animals], for a man who lives with a woman not only benefits the
species [by reproduction] but also benefits his own body and soul ..."
in accordance with the Talmudic teaching that a man who lives without a
wife lives without Torah and without the closeness of the Divine
Presence. Adam was satisfied only when he found a mate with whom he
could have a relationship that transcended an animal relationship.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (44)
Yebamoth 63a . Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.
RESPONSE (1)
A person who works the land day after day tends to have little time for
spiritual pursuits. This is one of the reasons given for the "Smittah"
or Sabbatical Year when the land must rest once in seven years and
farmers then spend that year studying and raising their spiritual level.
B. Hurwitz
RESPONSE (2)
Ezekiel 27:28 states that the seamen of Tyre will 'descend' from their
ships to the land. Rabbi Elazar noticed that this verse could be
interpreted to mean that working the land is the lowest of all
occupations. Commentators explain Rabbi Elazar's comment in different
manners. One explains that the verse teaches that the worst and lowest
form of slavery is the slavery of a field worker. Another explains that
in the future there will be special blessings attached to agricultural
work and everyone will abandon all other work in order to work in
agriculture and participate in these special blessings (as described in
Zecharia 8:12). Another commentator notes that in fact agricultural work
is the work that is best suited to appreciation of G-d's bountiful mercy
and divine providence and that the term 'lowest' of occupations means
that it is the occupation which is most suited to the development of the
trait of humility. (Eitz Yosef)
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (45)
Sanhedrin 55b . A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically,
three years "and a day" old).
RESPONSE (1)
Child betrothals were a common practice throughout the world - including
the Christian world - before modern times. It didn't mean the "husband"
had sex with the child.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Royce Buehler)
<5iroi7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RESPONSE (2)
It is the manner of the Talmud to examine extreme theoretical cases in
order to precisely define and delineate legal concepts. Such study is
mandated because the laws are part of the Written and Oral Torah, not
necessarily because they have practical application.
There are different legal consequences arising from an act of
intercourse (related to personal status, punishment for rape, property
rights etc.) and the Talmud investigates whether such an act committed
on a baby girl has the status of intercourse or not. There is an ancient
tradition that states that if the girl is older than the age of three
then an act of intercourse was committed; before that age, such an act
does not have the status of sexual intercourse for legal purposes (it
may be an act of assault, of course).
The passage in question states as follows: "A girl of three years and a
day is [capable of being] married by an act of intercourse ..." and the
Talmud continues to list further legal consequences of an act of
intercourse (laws of personal status, property etc.).
The reference to marriage refers to a case in which the father of the
girl delivers his daughter to a man with the intention that he create a
marriage bond with his daughter by having relations with her. From a
legal point of view this procedure creates a marriage with all the legal
consequences that flow therefrom. This is a legal conclusion which has
nothing to do with rabbinic endorsement of such practices or with the
number of such occurrences in history.
In fact the rabbis strongly opposed formation of the marriage bond by
intercourse (at any age) and punished those who acted in such manner
(Kidushin 12b). They further taught that the father's right to marry off
his daughter was to be used for her benefit. The age and manner of
marriage is to a large extent a societal variable but at Kidushin 41a
the rabbis taught: "It is forbidden for a man to betroth his daughter
while she is young [but rather he should wait] till she has grown and
says 'This is the one I want [to marry]" and this teaching is repeated
elsewhere in the Talmud.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (46)
Sanhedrin 54b . A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is
less than nine years old.
RESPONSE (1)
False. It doesn't say that.
Leviticus says that if a man lies with another man, both must be killed.
What Sanhedrin 54b says is that if one of the participants is under nine
years old, he is not considered a "man" - and so it is not required that
the child be put to death.
Really terrible, huh? Sparing the life of a victim of child abuse like
that?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Royce Buehler)
<5iroi7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RESPONSE (2)
The discussion here revolves around the age at which a male child is
capable of having relations that have the full legal ramifications and
penalties of intercourse. The entire discussion is related to an
analysis of the penalty for such action (which could be a capital
offense), and the passage states: "intercourse with a child of nine and
a day is not the same as that with a child of nine". As mentioned, this
statement is made in the context of the nature of the penalty to be
applied, and whether it is of a capital nature or not. See also the
remarks in item [CLAIM 45].
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (47)
Kethuboth 11b . "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl
it is nothing."
RESPONSE (1)
Grossly out of context. The question is whether in such a case the girl
can be considered a "virgin" later, when she comes to marry. The answer
is, yes, as far as she's concerned what happened wasn't sex, it was just
like getting poked with an inanimate object.
Really terrible, huh? Allowing a victim of child abuse to get on with
her life, and be treated as if she were innocent?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Royce Buehler)
<5iroi7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RESPONSE (2)
The statement is that "when a grown-up man has intercourse with a little
girl it is as nothing [in terms of creating a marriage bond with the
consequent legal ramifications] since for girls less [than three years
old] it is as if he put his finger into her eye ...". In other words the
act may be an act of assault but it does not create a legal binding
marriage unless the child is over the age of three. See the discussion
under item [CLAIM 45] for more details.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (48)
Yebamoth 59b . A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to
marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible
to marry a Jewish priest.
RESPONSE (1)
Neither of these occurrences is permitted in Jewish law, in fact both
are strictly prohibited. The discussion concerns the technical
definition of what a "virgin" is. A woman had to be a virgin in order to
marry a Jewish priest of the Temple because of the especially high level
of spiritual purity required of priests and their wives. There were also
many other requirements of priests and their wives to ensure the maximum
level of spiritual purity for Temple service (e.g. prohibition of
contact with dead bodies). Naturally, the legal boundaries of these
requirements needed to be defined.
David S. Maddison ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RESPONSE (2)
(a) It is the manner of the Talmud to explore every possibility
including the most bizarre and extreme cases. The requirement to study
the Torah includes examination of such extreme cases. Further,
exploration of the extreme cases allows precise delineation of delicate
legal principles. The passage in question deals with the law that
forbids a Jewish priest to marry a 'zonah', which is commonly but
incorrectly translated as a prostitute. The Talmud investigates whether
a woman who had relations with an animal falls into this category.
(b) Th[e] [second] sentence does not exist in the standard versions of
the Talmud (it also does not exist in the Soncino translation which I
examined).
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (49)
Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that
Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.
RESPONSE (1)
A man called Elazar ben Dordin repented so much for the promiscuous life
he led that he cried himself to death, his soul left his body and a
voice came down from Heaven calling him "Rabbi" to recognise his highly
improved spiritual level. Such is the power of true repentance. He was
not a Rabbi during his life, but after he repented he was worthy of
being one.
B. Hurwitz, David S. Maddison ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RESPONSE (2)
It hardly needs saying that the Talmud and Jewish law impose strict
codes of sexual behavior and the passage in question contains a major
discussion of the evils of prostitution.
In this passage the Talmud discusses the power of true repentance. It
points out that sometimes penitents who repent of terrible religious
sins such as idol worship die as a result of the remorse they feel over
their past. The Talmud recounts the story of a man called Eliezer Ben
Dordia (he is not mentioned anywhere else in the Talmud) who was in the
habit of visiting prostitutes. The Talmud relates the tremendous
internal struggle he undertook as part of his repentance and how he died
as a result of the remorse he felt. A 'bat kol' (an echo of a heavenly
voice) was heard declaring that "Rabbi" (a title of distinguished honor)
Eliezer was invited to the World to Come, that is, his sins had been
forgiven through his powerful act of repentance and further he had been
posthumously awarded the title "Rabbi".
The greatest rabbi of the age, the redactor of the Mishna, Rebi, wept
when he heard this story and declared that there are some who gain their
share of the World to Come from years of constant effort, while there
are others like Eliezer Ben Dordia who gain their share in a moment (of
intense repentance), and not only is their repentance effective but in
Heaven they are referred to by the title of "Rabbi" (as per the 'bat
kol').
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (50)
Hagigah 27a . States that no rabbi can ever go to hell.
RESPONSE (1)
It states that no righteous student of the Torah can go to hell. This
seems quite comprehensible. E.S.
RESPONSE (2)
At Hagiga 27a a passage of agada states that "the fire of Gehinom will
not overcome a scholar as it says ..." and the Talmud employs a literary
flourish based on a verse in Jeremiah to prove this point. This
statement is followed by another literary flourish from the Song of
Songs to prove that "The fire of Gehinom will not overcome the sinners
of Israel". These literary flourishes represent the optimistic belief
that even those who sin will, after a period of punishment, gain their
place in the World to Come.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (51)
Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the
rabbi won the debate.
RESPONSE (1)
Pretty horrid. They must have had some bad influence like reading that
book where Moses pleads with God and changes His mind. Some people can't
recognize a tall tale when they see it, and appreciate it for what it
is.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Royce Buehler)
<5iroi7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RESPONSE (2)
It is part of Jewish belief that G-d granted certain rights of biblical
interpretation and legislation to the sages and rabbis. At Baba Mezia
59b the Talmud makes the point that disputes concerning such
interpretation and legislation must be settled by majority vote in
accordance with the rabbinical understanding of Exodus 23:2 and not by
invoking claims of prophecy or special signs or miracles. This point is
made in the graphic and metaphorical manner of agadic literature by
describing a debate on a point of law between Rabbi Eliezer (sole
opinion) and the majority of rabbis.
Rabbi Eliezer tried to prove his point by invoking various miracles and
even a 'bat kol' (heavenly echo) to show that G-d supported his
position, but nevertheless his opponents insisted that the rule of the
majority prevailed. The story ends by describing how Elijah the Prophet
noted that on that day G-d himself smiled and admitted that his sons had
defeated him in debate.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (52)
Gittin 70a . The Rabbis taught: "On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet)
a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough
to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that
time; if he does, his children will be epileptic."
RESPONSE (1)
What's wrong with this teaching? Science is slowly beginning to admit
that spiritual entities do exist in our world, see Parapsychology. E.S.
RESPONSE (2)
See comments to items [CLAIM 41] and [CLAIM 42] above and introduction
under heading 'Science and Medicine'. Also see comments to item [CLAIM
55] below.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RESPONSE (3)
Much of Judaism is concerned with separating the holy from the unholy.
This teaching is concerned with separating the (unholy) act of going to
the bathroom and the holy act of having relations with one's wife.
Similarly, it is forbidden to pray in the presence of excrement or bad
smells, etc..
David S. Maddison ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (53)
Toilet and excrement obsessions are laced throughout Talmud and were
exhibited in Spielberg*s Schindlers List where the Hollywood director
shows a Jewish child jumping through a toilet seat in an outhouse and
falling into a pool of liquefied excrement. There the child meets two
other Jewish children partially immersed who inform the interloper that
this cesspool is their hiding spot exclusively and that he must find his
own. These are the kind of disgusting and morbid, psychotic images which
Jewish kids are exposed to constantly in the cinematic liturgy of
Holocaustianity and for that matter, in the Talmud as well.
RESPONSE
If after seeing Schindler's list this guy can say anything against Jews
he is a psychopath. Actually, the poor boy who hid in the outhouse did
so in order to save his life from the "clean German anti-Semites" who
would not go close to the outhouse (they most probably suffer from OCD).
E.S.
CLAIM (54)
Gittin 69b (p. 329). To heal the disease of pleurisy ("catarrh") a Jew
should "take the excrement of a white dog and knead it with balsam, but
if he can possibly avoid it he should not eat the dogs excrement as it
loosens the limbs."
RESPONSE (1)
The true statement does not relate to a Jew rather to any human. This is
an extract from a scientific procedure of ancient gentile doctors and
this medicinal compound together with the rest of the other remedies
mentioned there have been eradicated hundreds of years ago from Jewish
law. By the way, the earth over there would be very rich in vitamin B12
which originates from sludge.
****E.S.****?
RESPONSE (2)
See comments to items [CLAIM 41] and [CLAIM 42] above and introduction
under heading 'Science and Medicine'. Also see comments to item [CLAIM
55] below.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
CLAIM (55)
Pesahim 111a. It is forbidden for dogs, women or palm trees to pass
between two men, nor may others walk between dogs, women or palm trees.
Special dangers are involved if the women are menstruating or sitting at
a crossroads.
RESPONSE (1)
This relates to the prevention of people using witchcraft which could be
used when people were in the situations being described. By people
avoiding those situations, they would not become victims of people who
practiced witchcraft which was commonly practiced in ancient times. The
Sages recognised that some people believed in the power of witchcraft
and the Sages did not want people to become psychologically affected by
it. Therefore, people who believed in it were told to avoid exposure to
it as it might affect their mental health. This was simply about not
putting oneself in potentially dangerous situations. There are also
similar laws prohibiting Jews from entering old, abandoned, decaying
buildings which may collapse and cause injury or death.
David S. Maddison ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RESPONSE (2)
In this passage of agada the rabbis in Babylon refer to various
stratagems to avoid witchcraft. The passage also reports that the sages
in the Land of Israel did not concern themselves with some of these
matters. These stratagems were based on the prevailing beliefs at the
time and in at least one case a stratagem is reported in the name of a
non-Jew who was an instructress for local witches. The Talmud summarizes
the discussion with the following sentence: "As a general rule, those
who are worried about such things may be affected by them; those who are
not worried about them are not affected by them". The Meiri, a
commentator who lived some seven centuries ago wrote at the beginning of
his commentary on this passage of agada as follows: "In a few places we
have explained that in those times people believed in chants .. [and
other similar beliefs] ... and the sages did not try to uproot these
beliefs unless they were related to idolatry ..... and certainly [they
did not try to uproot these beliefs] where the people were so accustomed
to them that they could derive strength or suffer weakness on their
account, and we see this in this passage where it states 'those who are
worried about such things may be affected by them; those who are not
worried about them are not affected by them'".
Most modern readers would probably agree with the Meiri that this
passage expresses an important psychological truth about the power of
suggestion and mass belief.
Michael Gruda ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--[cont]--
Aloha, He'Ping,
Om, Shalom, Salaam.
Em Hotep, Peace Be,
Omnia Bona Bonis,
All My Relations.
Adieu, Adios, Aloha.
Amen.
Roads End
Kris
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