-Caveat Lector- NOVAK: Pat Buchanan's Web site says I insist that my running mate be pro-life, require that my nominees to the Supreme court be pro-life, defund Planned Parenthood, support the Human Life Amendment, support an active Congress conferring constitutional rights of personhood on the unborn. Would you vote for him? CHOATE: Yes, absolutely. I can not only vote for him, I can bring him over. Look, what we're saying is... (CROSSTALK) MURPHY: That's a scam. CHOATE: No, it's not a scam. The social issues are not part of the Reform Party platform. MURPHY: But they're part of Pat Buchanan. They're the franchise there. CHOATE: Well, that's fine. That's fine. That's fine. (CROSSTALK) CHOATE: No, that's fine. We can handle it. We're not exclusionary. MURPHY: This is the problem you guys have. This is why people think you wear aluminum foil hats in the spaceships and things. (CROSSTALK) NOVAK: All right, one at a time, one at a time. CHOATE: No, we think the Republicans are hypocrites, because you guys take him in, you say give us this right-to-life platform, and then you do nothing on it. NOVAK: Pat, isn't this though... CHOATE: Yes. NOVAK: ... a classic third party in American politics, where you take one issue, like George Wallace was for keeping down the black people and the other stuff was all irrelevant. They had some people who were pro-labor union, some people anti-labor union. You had conservatives. You had liberals on economic issues, and you don't care what anybody thinks as long as you go back to William McKinley on protection. Isn't that a fact? CHOATE: No, we want, obviously, to defend jobs and workers and prosperity. We want to deal with the immigration issues. We want to clean up a very corrupt political system. We want to close the revolving door that is in effect deteriorating the quality of our government. And all of these things are things that Pat Buchanan stands for and the Reform Party stands for. PRESS: Michael, look, doesn't it amount to this: with all due respect, the Reform Party is a car looking for a driver and Pat Buchanan's got a driver's license? MURPHY: Oh, yes, exactly, so do a lot of people, but Pat's the one I think they're focused on right now. PRESS: Right, so Pat's going to -- he'll -- listen, Pat believes in all the things that Bob talked about. We've debated all these issues. He also believes in all the things that Pat's talked about, so as the Reform Party candidate he runs not as the angry anti- abortion guy, he runs as the angry middle. He runs on the trade issues, on the job issues, and why doesn't that fit and who is going to stop him? MURPHY: Reform voters may in the process. Bill, you're a lefty so you don't get the abortion issue. It's a civil rights issue to a lot of pro-lifers. Pat believes in it. He is not going to fake his pro-life position, which is the most passionate issue behind his candidacy. (CROSSTALK) CHOATE: No, we're not asking him to fake it. He can take his pro-life position and run his pro-life position, but he'll never get it in the Republican Party. (CROSSTALK) NOVAK: Wait, we're going to have to take a break now. And when we return, we're going to find out if perhaps the Democrats are too smart by half, and this -- Buchanan as a Reform Party candidate could hurt Al Gore or Bill Bradley. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. What do Theodore Roosevelt, Henry Wallace, Strom Thurmond, George Wallace and John Anderson all have in common? Each departed from his ancestral party to run for president as an Independent. Will Patrick J. Buchanan follow them and leave, perhaps scuttle the Republican Party, becoming presidential candidate of Ross Perot's Reform Party. We're talking to Pat Choate, 1996 vice presidential nominee of the Reform Party, and to Republican campaign consultant Mike Murphy -- Bill. PRESS: Mike, before we move on, just a quick follow-up to what we were talking about just before the break. You say the Reform Party voters might be able to stop Pat at the convention. My question is, with whom? MURPHY: Ventura maybe. PRESS: Lowell Weicker? MURPHY: No, probably not Lowell Weicker. Again, I'm afraid the big spaceship will land, you know, on the miracle candidate. But I think this is a proxy fight between the Ventura forces that want to get rid of Perot and a very angry Ross Perot in the command center in Dallas somewhere, hoping to gin up this Pat thing -- use him as a tool. Ventura might get in to stop. PRESS: And if Ross -- and Ventura, who is trying to get a unicameral legislature in Nebraska, and Ross Perot, who would put full-time, full-bore, full-money into getting the party back from Jesse Ventura... MURPHY: I think Jesse would put the atomic pile driver on him at the end of things; he'd win the fight. PRESS: All right. Now, let's get down and get honest. I think you've hinted to this a couple of times already tonight. The real reason you don't want Pat to leave is because you fear that Pat will do to George, the son, what Ross Perot did in '92 to George, the father, deny him the White House, right? MURPHY: Hell, yes. PRESS: OK. You're honest about it. MURPHY: Or McCain or Dole, whoever the nominee is. Bottom line is if Pat runs as a spoiler he will help the left and hurt the right. Just like if Beatty runs, he'll, you know, hurt the left and help the right. PRESS: We know what happened in '92. Let's look at the latest poll by a firm called Schroth and Associates. MURPHY: Yes. Rob Schroth. PRESS: They're right here in Washington, D.C. -- showing, number one that Pat gets as a Reform Party candidate more votes than anybody else, even more than Jesse Ventura in this poll. And when you look at how he ranks up against Bush and Gore, here's what it shows: Bush, 39, with Pat in the race; Gore, 35,; Pat, 16; undecided, 10. Isn't -- I mean, the last thing on earth that George W. Bush wants or needs is Pat Buchanan as a Reform Party candidate, right? MURPHY: If Pat Buchanan chooses to do the devil's work, working for the Democrats - - your team -- you know, to hurt our guy or our woman, our candidate, I don't think they're due 16. I think that number would go down, but it's a big problem, I concur. PRESS: Final question, I'll make it quick So, Jim Nicholson, of all people, is going to go out to Mclean and talk Pat out of running and Pat's going to say, "What did you do for me lately, Jim?" What's Jim's answer? MURPHY: No, I think Chairman Nicholson is going to say: "You're a Republican. Don't become a tool for the other guys." And if Pat says, "You took the thing away from me," et cetera, et cetera -- phony argument. Nobody takes anything away from him; it's competition. You get votes if people support you. Pat, unfortunately, didn't have enough votes. There's no big conspiracy. Sometimes you have to read them and weep, get up and fight again, not become somebody's tool in a third-party nutty campaign. NOVAK: Pat Choate, do you know who somebody named Michael Novosel is? CHOATE: No, who is Michael Novosel? NOVAK: Well, he's one of the leaders of your old party, the Reform Party in Georgia. And he said this the other day, he said: "Don't forget that it was the Republicans' move to the right on religion that pushed a lot of Reformers out of the GOP. If Buchanan came into our party, it would be the beginning of the end. He might bring in a lot of people, but half the current ones would leave." CHOATE: I do not believe that. Moreover, I just find it amazing that you continue to think in the context of two parties. There's now three parties. Pat Buchanan comes to the Reform Party. He'll have $12.5 million. He can easily raise another $15 million or $20 million. He can manage an effective campaign just as Jesse Ventura did against an establishment Republican, an establishment Democrat. Pat Buchanan will pull over large numbers of the Reagan Democrats, the blue-collar voters. What is going to happen here is you're going to find yourself not talking about pulling from the left or right, Democrat or Republican, what you're talking about is facing defeat by Buchanan. NOVAK: With all due respect, Pat, you've never been elected dog catcher. CHOATE: No, and neither have you, Bob. NOVAK: No. CHOATE: Right? NOVAK: But I talk about people... CHOATE: Yes, and I write about it too. At least I ran, you know? NOVAK: Well, I was smart enough not to run. CHOATE: Well, that's OK. MURPHY: America's grateful. PRESS: I was dumb enough to run. CHOATE: There you go. NOVAK: And got beat badly. CHOATE: Well, that's OK. NOVAK: But I want you to listen to something, if you don't mind, that was said by the only Reform Party candidate who ever got elected to anything. Let's listen to it. PRESS: Jesse. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GOV. JESSE VENTURA (REF), MINNESOTA: And I don't know if he'd be a good fit for the Reform Party, because Pat puts social issues on the front burner. We on the Reform Party do not put social issues as a front-burning issue. (END VIDEO CLIP) CHOATE: That -- it is true, but we have other issues. I am surprised how terrified you two guys are that Pat Buchanan will come with the Reform Party. Why can't -- what is wrong with the GOP... MURPHY: I'll explain. CHOATE: ... where you have a Bob Smith leave, you're having a Pat Buchanan leave, where you cannot do better than about 22 percent of the vote? NOVAK: They were not doing very well in the Republican Party. But I want to make a suggestion I should have made a long time ago. CHOATE: OK. NOVAK: A lot of people never heard of you, at, because you're a very famous, important person in Washington long before you got associated with Ross Perot. But you were a Democrat. You were a... CHOATE: No. NOVAK: Just a minute. CHOATE: I was an independent. NOVAK: Well! You were -- you were... PRESS: There's a difference? CHOATE: There is a real difference. NOVAK: But you... CHOATE: Go check the records, Bob. NOVAK: You ran with the Dick Gephardts. I mean, your book, "Agents of Influence," you just gush over how wonderful Dick Gephardt is. You were so deep with the protectionist Democrats on the Hill. Aren't you an agent of influence... (CROSSTALK) MURPHY: For the Democratic Party. CHOATE: Have you ever heard of Henry Bellmon or Dewey Bartlett or Winfield Dun, the three first Republican governors of Oklahoma and Tennessee. I was there with them. (CROSSTALK) Come on. I have my credentials on both sides. (CROSSTALK) Of course I like Dick Gephardt. He's terrific. MURPHY: The problem is irrelevant. You want to be a party but your issues don't work. The stone age protectionism doesn't sell. People don't want it. It's a mistake. So I'll ask you a question. Do you really think... CHOATE: Go tell Skip Humphrey that it doesn't work, OK? MURPHY: It doesn't work. CHOATE: Well, he's sitting at home a private citizen... (CROSSTALK) MURPHY: You -- all right. They nominate Pat. You all nominate Pat. PRESS: Ask the question. MURPHY: You nominate Pat. CHOATE: Yes, Pat will win. MURPHY: Bet you a thousand dollars. CHOATE: You're on. MURPHY: All righty. PRESS: Wait a minute. They start talking... NOVAK: The nomination or the election. MURPHY: The election. PRESS: They start talking that kind of money, I'm getting out of here. PRESS: Mike Murphy, thanks very much for coming on the show. Pat Choate, you guys come back. When he announces, we'll debate it... CHOATE: You're on. PRESS: In the meantime, Bob Novak and I, we'll be back with our closing comments. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) NOVAK: Bill, I think there's something we can agree on here. This is a tremendous scam by the Democratic Party to defeat George W. Bush or whoever the Republican nominee is, because you know very well that Pat Buchanan takes even more votes from the Republicans than Ross Perot did in 1992. PRESS: I agree with that Bob, but where I disagree is this is a scam by the Democratic Party. That's not why Pat would do this. Pat honestly believes that he can -- I'm sorry, he does. NOVAK: No, I agree with that. PRESS: He honestly believes he can win. He's doing it for his own reasons. NOVAK: No, I am not -- I don't -- the reason I was interrupting you, I don't want you to make you assume (ph) that I think Pat is part of the scam. I think that there are elements in the Democratic Party and perhaps in the Reform Party who want to defeat the Republicans, and I think that -- there's -- you know and I know Pat Buchanan's not going to be elected president. You know that, don't you? PRESS: I agree. And by the way, let me admit something right up front, is damn right, I want Pat Buchanan to run as a Reform Party candidate... NOVAK: Exactly. PRESS: ... because I think he will pull more votes from George W. Bush than from Al Gore, though he'll hurt Al Gore as well, and he'll help defeat Bush in November 2000. So go, Pat, go. NOVAK: I don't know if you remember this at all, Bill, but Bill Clinton, who's our president... PRESS: I do remember. NOVAK: ... did not get 50 percent of the vote in either of those elections. PRESS: Yes. NOVAK: And what you need to get a Democrat elected -- because they can't get 50 percent -- it's so rare. Lyndon Johnson was about the only one who ever did in the last half century. What you need, of course, is a little trick. And this is the trick for the year 2000. PRESS: Pat-- Bob, rather, if that's the trick, if Pat's the trick, we'll take the trick. My problem, Bob, is that I have already endorsed Pat for the Republican nomination. If he leaves, I've got to find another candidate. I'm thinking of Alan Keyes. >From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good-night for "CROSSFIRE." NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of "CROSSFIRE." -------------------- end ----------------------- Help Pat and the Brigade in our Battle for the White House... Go to: http://www.gopatgo2000.org/000-v-helppat.html Spread the word -- forward this email across the USA! *********************************************** Don't Miss Out - Join the BRIGADE Email List! - Visit: Official WebSite for Patrick J. Buchanan for President Web: http://www.gopatgo2000.org Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 1-703-734-2700 WebMaster - Linda Muller - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ********************************************** DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance�not soapboxing! 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