-Caveat Lector-
from soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup:
Subject: Re: Berthe, Merovingian Princess
From: "Fred Tiedemann Croese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 14 November 1999 04:49 AM EST
Message-id: <80m0kb$qad$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
This is what Settipani tells us in his "Les anc�tres de Charlemagne". So if
Settipani is correct, Berthe de Pr�m is a Merovingian Princess.
1. Charlemagne, Roi des Francs 768-800, empereur 800-814.
2. P�pin le Bref, Roi des Francs 751-768.
3. Berthe de Laon, Reine 751-783.
4. Charles Martel, Duc des Francs 717-741.
5. Rotrude
6. Caribert Hardrad de Laon, Comte de Laon.
7. Gis�le (?)
8. P�pin d'Herstal, Maire du Palais 688/90-714.
9. Alpaide
10. saint Li�vin, �v�que de Tr�ves.
11. Willigarde
12. N.N.
13. Berthe de Pr�m
16. Ansegisel, domestique.
17. Begga, abbesse d'Andenne.
18. Childebrand, dignitaire.
20. Gu�rin, Comte de Paris 654-676.
21. Gunzie, soeur de Basin �v�que de Tr�ves.
22. Th�odon, Duc de Bavi�re 682/690-716.
23. Folchaide, Duchesse de Bavi�re.
24. Hugobert, s�n�chal 693, comte du Palais 697.
25. Irmine, abbesse d'Oeren.
26. Thierry III, Roi de Bourgogne (670 & 673), Roi de France (690-691).
27. Clothilde Dode, Reine des Francs, r�gente 690/1 - 5 juin 692.
51. N.N.
52. Clovis II, Roi des Francs de Neustrie 640-657.
102. Dagobert I, Roi des Francs 629-639.
103. Ragentrude
104. Dagobert I, Roi des Francs 629-639.
105. Nantilde
--
Fred Tiedemann Croese
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Genealogical Home Page (5400 individuals):
http://www.bart.nl/~ftc/index.html
Leo van de Pas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:00d201bf2d7c$3db17d60$bf3e3bcb@leo...
> Sadly, my copy of Stuart's book is on the shelf not to be used. There are
> too
> many errors. A more serious source for this subject is "Caroli Magni
> Progenies" by Siegfried Rosch, published in 1977 by Degener Verlag.
>
> On page 52 he records his version of the ancestors of Charlemagne :
>
> 1.Charlemagne
>
> 2.Pepin the younger
> 3.Bertrada/Berta the Younger/Berta of Laon
>
> 4.Charles Martell
> 5.Chrotrud
>
> 6.Heribert/Caribert, Count of Laon
>
> 8.Pepin
> 9.Chalpaida/Alpais
>
> 12.NN
> 13.Berta the Elder, on 23 June 721 (with her son 6) founded the first
> convent/monastery at Pruem
>
> 16.Ansegisel
> 17.Begga
>
> 26.Hugobert, died 697/698 Seneschall in 693, 694; Pfalzgraf in 697
> 27.Irmina, died before 710 died as Abbess of Convent Oeren (Trier)
>
> 54.NN brother of a Dux Theotaris who owned property in Echternach
> and ca.682 made gifts to the monastery of Weissenburg i.E. and died
> before 706.
>
> Sadly, I don't see any Merovingian links.
> Best wishes
> Leo van de Pas
Subject: Re: Berthe, Merovingian Princess
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Settipani)
Date: Tue, 16 November 1999 02:44 PM EST
Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
The ancestry of Berta, merovingian or not, can be the subject of a
lenghty book. But in a few words, I can give the reason which make
probable, for Chaume (who nerver make of Plectrude a merovingian
princess), and others, including myself, her merovingian affiliation :
We know that the villa of Rommersheim is the common property, inherited
of their respective fathers, of King Pippin and his wife Berta, daughter
of count Charibert.
So, given merovingian successoral practice, one person have two
children, one being Pippin�s father ancestor and the other Berta�s
father ancestor.
Otherwise, we know that Rommersheim was previously in the hands of Berta
� of Prum � and that she had in 721 one only surviving son named
Charibert.
So the first conclusion is that Berta�s son Charibert is the same that
Charibert, father of queen Berta. The second is that Berta of Prum was
akin of Charles Martel. E. Hlawitschka has build an elaborate theory
which make of Berta the sister of Plectrude, the second wife of Pippin,
charles�father. He denied so merovingian ancestry for Berta. So the
standard theory. But this theory is a misconception. He does so only
because he fails to find a � natural � link between Berta of Prum and
Charles Martel on the ground of ecclesiastical prohibitions. But this
failure is due to his inadequate search..
Merovingian blood for Berta is expected for onomastic reasons (her name
<Berta>, her son�s name <Charibert>, her grandson name <Theoderic> are
all merovingian names). And this explain the merovingian names given by
Charlemagne to is children (not only first sons, Clovis and Clotaire,
but another son, Theoderic, and a daughter, Clotilde).
A good explanation is that one :
The king Theoderic III has a wife Doda. This Doda could be a daughter of
Ansegisel, son of another Doda. So, Ansegisel, presumably share
Rommersheim between his son, Pippin of Herstal and his daughter Doda,
king Theoderic�s wife. Then Pippin�s son, Charles Martel inherited that,
and so Berta, Doda�s daughter. This explain why King Clothar IV, son of
Theoderic III, was called the cousin of Charles Martel in Ademar of
Chabannes� chronicle.
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