It seems that this discussion is going nowhere as some refuse to budge on their BELIEFS in the reality of ET driven physical craft. I noted how the "best evidence" report just seemed to skip over the possibility of paranormal explanations which are certainly, in my book, a real possibility. How is this scientific? Did these French or Belgian pilots actually capture a craft? Did they get an actual Alien? Could it even be determined OBJECTIVELY that the UFO's in question were MATERIAL objects? The answer to these questions is, no. Now I don't think that anyone here is going to deny that UFO's exist as a real phenomenon which is attested to by historical reference as well as contemporary experience. I don't think that anyone here will contest that some people have seen, or experienced,(at least they firmly believe it to be so within their own minds)"beings", or "presences". And that some of these "beings" may have identified themselves as "alien" from somewhere other than Earth. This is all subjective and open to interpretation. The fact is that no matter what way you slice it there exists the fact that there is NO OBJECTIVE evidence for ET's even existing (even though it MAY be a logical conclusion based on the density of stars, and planets, etc.) let alone their coming here to Earth. There is no NON-SUBJECTIVE evidence that UFO's are even real PHYSICAL or MATERIAL craft. There is no OBJECTIVE evidence that any purported "abductions" were done by aliens, or that aliens which are "experienced", in one way or another, are even real physical, material beings. NOW, let us suppose that people who have experienced these "beings" or been "abducted" by them and that they were told all of the things that they claim they were told. Let us also assume that they were taken somewhere that appeared to them to be a ship of some kind, or that they were given a tour of the Solar System like some have claimed. None of that is objective. It still proves nothing, since all of the phenomenon may have other explanations. Even if "beings" are experienced and they tell you something, it does NOT MEAN THEY ARE TELLING YOU THE TRUTH! Where does it say that "aliens" must always tell you the truth? What about Paranormal explanations which are just dismissed by the French in the report so often cited recently here? How is it that we can ignore an interpretation which has such a lengthy historical and cultural anchor? What about Ghosts, or Demons, or Angels. For that matter what about HUMANS from the future, or past? Nothing can be ruled out. I DO NOT RULE OUT THE POSSIBILITY OF ALIENS BEING HERE AND DRIVING AROUND UFO'S! But, it is clear to me that the people on this list who BELIEVE that ET's are here and that they are driving around UFO's for God knows what reasons, ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to accept the possibility that they might be WRONG! They will not accept that the "evidence" they cite is open to many possible interpretations because it is SUBJECTIVE. They will not admit and accept that there simply is NO OBJECTIVE evidence, there is no PHYSICAL evidence, there are no alien bodies, there are no captured UFO craft. It will not do to "claim" that the government is covering it up, which may or may not be true. The fact is that al the "evidence" which has been presented here in support of UFO's being "alien" craft piloted by ET's, is not evidence at all but SUBJECTIVE interpretation. Remember, radar can reflect off of weather systems which are not solid objects. People can see hallucinations. The military are probably capable of mimicking UFO, and ET experiences. Peple are sometimes just mistaken. Then again sometimes they are not, and because this issue ranges over time and through different cultures one must conclude that there is SOMETHING GOING ON, and that the POSSIBILITY that, at least some, UFO's are in fact craft piloted by ET's, is so. But by the same token one must conclude that because there is no OBJECTIVE evidence for it that this interpretation could be WRONG. Can we agree on this basic premise?????? "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey _______________________________________________________________________ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go _______________________________________________________________________ <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. 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