>You can have freedom and rights, but only if the society you live in
permits you to have them.

I have freedom and rights because I refuse to let society, or anyone else,
dictate to me that I don't.

>I'm not advocating this. I'm just saying that this is political reality


The political reality is that people do what they want to do, laws or no
laws.
>
>
>>
Go ahead and smoke your ass off. But if you sell the shit you should go to
jail.

If I choose to buy and smoke tobacco, that's between me and the guy I buy
it from. It's none of your business or the government's either

>This way you get to keep your illusion about having rights, and everyone
else
has fewer sick and dead people to deal with.

If you want fewer sick and dead, stop wasting money on the military and
put it into medical research. Tobacco is not the problem. Cancer is the
problem. Attack it.

>>
 But I do feel differently about my kids body. I have the " right " the
power and the ability to control my kid's health.

But you do NOT have the right to control MY kid's health, his education,
or anything about him. Butt out.


>If my kid's health or safety is threatened by something you think you
have a right to exploit like dangerous drugs and tobacco, or heroin, then
it will have to go. That's because my kid's life is much more important to
me than your individual " rights."

Tobacco and heroin are only a threat to your kid's health if he uses them.
So teach him not to use them. That's what i taught my kid. It worked just
fine.

>Then it boils down to whether there are more people like you, or like me.

No. It boils down to whether people like me permit people like you to
interfere in our lives.

>>
But you called me a Liberal. I'll remember that.

Actually, I said you sounded like a liberal. But so what? If you preach
liberalism, you may as well be one. The effect on others is the same.

>>
I'm highly susceptible to nanny state propaganda.

Apparently.  You want the government to protect your kid's health. I say,
protect your own kid's health. There's a lot fewer unpleasant side effects
that way.

>>
This is an idiotic statement Nessie. It's not more important than water,
or air, or health, or even good sex.

That's a matter of opinion. Opinions on all subjects vary widely, but they
fall into two basic categories: mine and wrong.  You're wrong. Freedom is
worth more than anything, even life itself.

>>
It is better to live on your knees than to die on your feet."

That's a life not worth living.

> I suggest you read up on slavery, and life in the gulags and in Hitler's
camps. It might give you a clue. Survival is all that counts.

I have. I've also been in a number of situations where my own survival was
at stake. Obviously, I've lived to fight another day, so I must be doing
something right.

>Ideological bullshit is a luxury you have when you are not facing
extinction.

I suggest you read up on the Treblinka rebellion. Pay special attention to
the accounts of Jews who sacrificed their own lives so that the rebellion
would succeed and their comrades go free. Particularly moving is the case
of the six so-called "gold Jews" who, at a crucial point in the planning,
were caught with some evidence. Knowing they would be tortured and
probably break down and reveal what they knew and spoil the plot, they
instead held hands and jumped together into a ditch filled with flaming
bodies. Their sacrifice bought the freedom of six hundred people.  Forty
of them survived the entire war and died free men and women, of old age,
most of them in Israel. Were it not for the ideology of those six Jews who
jumped into the flames, and the courage to act on it, not one of those
forty would have died free.

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