-Caveat Lector- from:alt.conspiracy As, always, Caveat Lector Om K ----- Click Here: <A HREF="aol://5863:126/alt.conspiracy:642604">Maj. Downing on MKULTRA</A> ----- Subject: Maj. Downing on MKULTRA From: Christopher P McDill <A HREF="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"> [EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> Date: Tue, Sep 19, 2000 8:40 AM Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Here's an interview wherein Major Jack Downing discusses his past role in mind control experiments: _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ [Another gem, dating from the end of '98] Q: So let us take on the issue of controlling the mind. Some of what you were involved with centered on the issue of the human mind. Will, values, consciousness, perception, etc were the puzzle-pieces you were seeking to re-arrange. Downing: I participated in numerous projects, because of my expertise, which attempted to correct the "brainwashing gap" that we'd convinced Congress existed between the U.S. and its Communist adversaries. The gap didn't really exist, mind you, but events which transpired between WWI and the Korean war convinced us that the human mind was the next big battlefield. There was a fantastic little paperback book that came out a long time ago called "Brainwashing" written by a CIA-affiliated journalist named Hunter, which made brainwashing out to be the invention of Chinese communists. It was intended to scare Americans into pressuring their congressional representatives into allocating more money into mind-control research. . . and it worked. That same trick also worked to get funding for a lot of similar projects. The media has been the best ally for black ops. Q: You had no issues about doing this stuff? I feel that you are almost relishing the memories of better days, when funding was good, and anything was possible. Downing: Actually, that period slightly proceeded my tenure in this line of work. I worked with people who would get almost tearfully wistful remembering when it was all new, and the priorities of the Cold War superceded such minor issues as human rights. Q: So you, as you have stated elsewhere, were involved in some of the research into the possibilities of LSD and other drugs in unconventional warfare. Downing: That was one of the things. I did that for a while. My findings on that were not so promising. Others who did that sort of thing got better results. After MKULTRA it was turned over to the "Nonlethal Weapons" program and it was out of my hands. . . I was doing a lot with indoctrination, interrogation, counterintelligence stuff. . . like how to get captured personnel to divulge military secrets. That was much more fruitful than the other thing. I think that drugs actually made people more resistant to indoctrination. The drug programs tried to achieve the opposite effects, but people, you know, would just get high, and ignore the interrogators. So. . .we took the investigation in another direction. The "Nonlethal Weapons" folks worked on how to use drugs just to incapacitate troops, or make them question authority. I turned my attention on ways to get confessions. Q: It's a classic news item during wartime, that American POWs bravely resisted giving away their secrets, risking torture and death in the interests of patriotism. . . Downing: Well, that's what we were trying to undermine. The old way of interrogation, which is still used much of the time by police and less sophisticated governments is torture. Fear. It works, but not always. Following the example of religious cults, we developed a different, more successful angle. No torture, no fear. The human mind is so malleable, belief systems so fragile, why hurt people? The move in modern warfare is bloodless victory. We really don't want to kill anyone unless we're in a hurry. Better to conquer the loyalties and confidence of the enemy in their ideologies. Then you have two armies fighting for you: your own, and theirs. Better to cultivate sedition than to fertilize the fields with blood. Q: So, about the cults. What did you take from them? Downing: Okay. So as I was saying. It is admittedly hard to develop any weapon without the enemy using it too. We cannot rely on our soldiers to keep secrets anymore. That is why soldiers get such a compartmentalized picture of what they are doing. And they are also given to believe totally inaccurate things about their mission, so long as it does not interfere with their combat effectiveness. So many Army and Air Force people are being released thinking they have these secrets, about government collaboration with aliens, or some other conspiracy poppycock. They write books, the enemy reads them, and they think they have good intelligence because it came from ex-armed forces. The cults. What we got from them is the idea that you can get better intelligence from people who believe in your mission. So, say we get a POW, and we have a little time to work with him. It's not time-critical, such as on the eve of an offensive or something. We take him away to some cozy place and deprogram him. We don't ask him any questions about secrets. That would put him on the defensive too soon. Usually we do this with officers. Enlisteds just get torture, because they don't have much to offer outside of maybe some logistical details. But an officer, sometimes an NCO, has a bigger picture, so we need him. What we do, we strip away his adherence to any former ideologies, and then make him loyal to our cause. It's easier than you'd think. Much easier. Once we have him in our pockets, then he's volunteering everything he knows, and helping us figure out where the gaps are in his own picture of his former mission. Precious intelligence, and it's worth the extra time spent retrieving it. So then we have an informant who could even be released back to his people, and about half the time, he'll continue funneling useful data back to us. The issue I have with this now is that this method leaks out. Now the big cults are stronger for our having developed better methods of brainwashing. They watch. They know when they're on to a good thing. So now we have high-up cult people in some powerful places in government, feeding these tricks back to their people, and -well, it's two ways actually. Cult stuff permeates the state, too. Look at AA. That organization has learned an awful lot from the Chinese school of brainwashing. And where did they get those Maoist secrets from? American intelligence dossiers, initially. Think about it: "Big Book" sounds suspiciously like "Little Red Book". . .dunnit? The groupness, the self-criticism, the confessing, guilt, thought-stopping vocabulary. It's bad news. Q: Okay, last question. How was your expertise applied during your affiliation with the order known as the "Black Ops Brethren"? Downing: Ah, I was one of the people who worked on ways to lay on cover memories. People would see things, and we needed to make them remember something else. Besides straightforward hypnosis and other mindcontrol tricks, we threw in assorted other smoke-and-mirrors tactics just to confuse any efforts on the part of the 'witness' to unravel what happened. Several alternate realities were laid in, to create a cognitive dissonance. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- You can find this interview, and others like it, at the website Interviews With Jack Downing: <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/babcock.chester/interview1/index.html"> http://members.tripod.com/babcock.chester/interview1/index.html</A> There are several other sites devoted to collecting Downing-related material: <A HREF="http://sites.netscape.net/chrismcdill/updates"> http://sites.netscape.net/chrismcdill/updates</A> <A HREF="http://homestead.deja.com/user.almaqtul/index.html"> http://homestead.deja.com/user.almaqtul/index.html</A> <A HREF="http://www.ufomind.com/people/d/downingj/"> http://www.ufomind.com/people/d/downingj/</A> <A HREF="http://www.meninblack.f2s.com/mibexplanations.htm"> http://www.meninblack.f2s.com/mibexplanations.htm</A> ===== Subject: Re: Downing on MKULTRA From: Christopher P McDill <A HREF="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"> [EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 11:17 AM Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Here's some more of what Downing has said about mind control experiments: ================================== Q: What is MKULTRA? J.D.: ...MKULTRA was a gov't "black" operation which focused on the means, technologically or chemically, by which the human mind could be completely controlled. In essence, how to create a "Manchurian Candidate" (have you seen that movie?) ...I'd like to clear up some confusion about the nature of projects or operations (or agencies) called "black"...most people think black simply means "ultra top secret," which is actually untrue...for example, there has never been anything black about Nevada test Site/Nellis Bombing range (which includes "area51") ...secret, yes...very secret. But there is no deception. It is federal land, and it's on the map. People are wasting too many brain cells caring about that place. Black operation is one that pretends to be something else. . .deception is a key factor. For example, the CIA recruiting people, while deceiving them into thinking that they are working for a corporation or activist group...they never know where their paychecks are coming from. Black is . . .your own government bombing a federal building and then blaming it on extremists or communists. . .you can see that something is going on, but the causality is completely displaced. . .another example is of course the building up of a UFO mythology in order to keep us from thinking about experimental warfighting technologies, or covert domestic operations. . . . . .as investigators of UFOs and paranormal phenomena, you should always ask yourself, when following clues or interviewing people, whether the lead you are following may have conveniently been set for you, by some individual or agency who has a stake in your deception. Most investigations of this sort amount to little more than a merry goose chase. Someone is laughing, at your expense. Remember what I have said in the past about the "hall of mirrors". . . Q: Refresh our memories. J.D.: The "hall of mirrors is the modus operandi and sole function of at least a few "black" agencies within the U.S. and other governments. By means of spinning out distractions and alternate realities, public opinion is shaped, and people are kept from finding out what's really going on. This evolved after WWI [in the U.S.], when the U.S. and British gov't began to hire top advertising people to work in their propaganda departments. It became clear that wars could be won by the control of information alone. Many wars have happened in the 20th century with nary a shot fired, and the civilian population oblivious, until the forces of economic imperialism start setting up shop in their countries. The U.S. is now in a state of constant war with the world, and the stake is economic. The "hall of mirrors" functions to tell the world that the U.S. is the "good guy" and that "everything is okay, just you stay tuned to your TV sets"... ================================ from <A HREF="http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl%40listserv.aol.com/msg47395.html"> http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl%40listserv.aol.com/msg47395.html</A> ================================ ===== Subject: JD: MKULTRA in Vietnam From: Christopher P McDill <A HREF="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"> [EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 11:38 AM Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Here is an interview with Maj. Jack Downing ======================================= Source: <A HREF="http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl%40listserv.aol.com/msg47395.html"> http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl%40listserv.aol.com/msg47395.html</A> ======================================= Jack Downing Interview [Here is a transcription an interview with Maj Jack Downing from November of 1998. The interviewer has insisted on his anonymity. ] Introduction: I am picking Major Jack Downing's brain, in the interest of getting a better understanding of some of the things he has alluded to in earlier writings. I have been cautioned that he will likely not answer all of my questions, as he is treading carefully around matters that are still highly classified enough to get him into trouble. Q: First off, I'd like you to explain why you use the title "Major" even though you are not an active-duty military officer. J.D.: It is a tradition that officers in the U.S. Armed Forces can hold on to the rank, as a sort of "honorary" title, that they last held before leaving the service. I suppose it's like being called "doctor" after you've earned a PhD. I left the army only a few years after the Vietnam conflict, and went into civilian employment with the NSA, and they called me Major there, so I got used to using the title. Ironically, during the war I was a captain, but usually went by "Mr." Because I was usually in mufty. I was working alongside the CIA, as a consultant in PSYOPS, and as a specialist in human ecology- Q: Before you proceed, can you explain what you mean by "human ecology"? J.D.: That's a phrase that connotes different things, depending on the context, from the wholesome to the not-so-wholesome. In the capacity for which I was employed, it was a way of pinning down the psyche and behaviors of human beings in differing environments or under various circumstances. It employed the observational principles of anthropologists and psychologists alongside the more manipulative techniques of advertisers, social engineers, and "golden age" brainwashers. It was, in retrospect, a very unorthodox and ethically questionable thing. Q: So what were you doing there? What were you doing with all that? J.D.: Ah, at first I was helping the CIA turn the sentiments of the Cambodian population against the Khmer Rouge. Among other things, we had a radio station which would broadcast western cultural programming to the locals. . .rock-n-roll, pro-American propaganda, sort of a VOA thing, only it was broadcast from within Phnom Penh, and was made to appear as if under strictly local sponsorship. I was back and forth between Vietnam and Cambodia (Kampuchea) doing various things. The radio thing was the most fun. Q: You were in "mufty" as you said- J.D.: Well, both in and out of uniform actually. I had two sets of ID, and in my "civilian" capacity I went about as Mr. Jacob Donleavy, passing as either a journalist, spook, or diplomat, depending on the circumstances. I was Captain Jack Downing in my Army uniform, but my MOS [army job -ed.] was as varied as my hats. One day I'm in counterintelligence, another day a press liason, yet another time I'd be a Special Forces paratrooper. I had to keep tabs on several operations. Unconventional warfare was no picnic. Most of the operations were laughable failures, mostly due to the meddling of higher-up brass. . .We also brought the MK projects into the war. The, uh, extreme circumstances of warfare gave us excellent opportunities to observe the ways certain mind control technologies might work . . . or fail to work. Q: What would you consider a success? J.D.: Relative to the nature of the operation in question, I'd say that much was learned from the administering of psychoactive substances to the troops under combat stress. LSD, pot, the usual culprits, and then some new chemicals, trying to elicit stronger fight reflexes, etcetera. Q: So you were like. . .a pusher, too? J.D.: [grinning] You could say that. I was providing these substances to the soldiers personally, and would have had to take the fall, so to speak, if the big brass were to protest. Luckily, that didn't happen. What did happen is that these soldiers took stories back with them at the end of their tours. My name was connected with a certain quality of drugs, much like Mezz Mezzrow gave his name to Harlem's best reefer in the 30's. Q: You mean, that "Captain Jack" is you!? J.D. : Presumably. More amusing to me is the "Jacob's Ladder" connection. But anyway, it was all very insightful to me, because in my curiosity, I was consuming some of these substances myself, and learned a whole lot about myself. There was a fellow in army intelligence that I had some acquaintance with who was also messing with the stuff and he got it into his head that he was clairvoyant. There was a whole clique who got into this clairvoyance thing, and got some general to put up money for research. Ed, uh, he was called Ed James back then, was a PSYOPS guy, and still is. I'm a whole helluva lot more psychic than these guys, but I wasn't about to take up that indoors lifestyle when I was having so much fun in the Jungle. A man hasn't really lived until he's seen tracer and mortar fire at night, under the influence of acid. Q: So, back to Phnom Penh... J.D. : We had to hightail it out of there. I really feel bad for those people. Some of my colleagues (the CIA guys) had some women they were seeing out there, real cuties, that they had to abandon to the Khmer Rouge, and you know they got purged. Q: So how long were you out there, in Southeast Asia? J.D. : I served several tours of duties. I'm sorry I have to be vague about the exact years. After that I was over in Germany applying some of the findings we got, and set up some things in a few army bases in the U.S. At the time of my leaving, my role in the army as human ecology expert was taken up by another officer, a Michael Aquino, who was trying out these principles in the context of Anton Lavey's church, and it was alleged (and denied) in some base daycare centers. I knew about the daycare things, but I don't know of any involvement by Aquino. Who knows? Things in intelligence were so compartmentalized that one hand didn't know what the other was doing. Q: Well this is pretty serious though. If you know something about those charges you should have testified when he was investigated. J.D.: Hah! Are you kidding? In our field, nobody was sinless enough to cast the first stone. Anyway, Aquino was a member in good standing with the Black Ops Brethren, which my father was in, and I had to keep my nose clean if there was any hope of me getting in. Q: Can you talk a bit about the Black Ops Brethren? What were they doing in the Vietnam War? J.D. : What they were doing in the war, I am not at liberty to divulge. I was not a member, and had no contact with people identified to me as such. But I would not be surprised if they were not watching my work very closely, because when I did get involved, I saw the file they'd kept on me. It dated from my childhood, and was particularly detailed about my wartime work. Q: And later? J.D. : I've written about that period. I learned about the organization known exoterically as the Men in Black during my indoctrination into the brotherhood. I'd have loved to have talked to my father in greater depth about those earlier years, but he died not long after I got involved, and most of what I know about his secret work I read in the archive of the Black Ops Brethren. Q: As soon as the focus turns directly on the Black Ops Brethren, you tend to get pretty slippery. J.D. : You want to know why? I'll tell you. If I tell so much as a single story about specific operations, I become afraid. Why? I don't know why. Perhaps they conditioned me somehow. Perhaps I'm brainwashed, but I can't bring forth memories of specific activities without having a panic experience. I know how to cure myself of most anxieties and fears pretty easily. This is pretty deep stuff, which even the subtle psychological antidotes which I know won't fix. So. . .what I can do then is try to allude to things, beat around the bush, try to get closer to my own memories by sneakier means. How did I even get started talking about all this "Men in Black" stuff in the first place? I managed after years of struggle to bypass the defenses that were set up inside of me against speaking about those years. I'm tired. I'll tell you more some other time. =================================================== ----- Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, All My Relations. Omnia Bona Bonis, Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! 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