-Caveat Lector- > The URL for this article is > http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/ivkovic1.htm > > Serbian Minister of Science Speaks out > An Interview with Bane Ivkovic > > www.tenc.net > [Emperor's Clothes] > > Bane Ivkovic is Serbian Minister of Science and Technology. He was > forced from this position after the Oct. 5 coup d'etat. > > Mr. Ivkovic had been in charge of the highly successful program of > rebuilding bridges, factories and homes destroyed by the NATO > bombing. > > We interviewed Mr. Ivkovic at the end of October and again in early > November. This is the first interview. The interviewer is Jared > Israel, editor of www.tenc.net > > Interview with Bane Ivkovic > > Israel: I understand you were in charge of reconstruction after the > bombing. > > Ivkovic: Yes. For four years I had been Serbian Minister of > Construction and then starting in 1998 I was Minister for Science and > Technology. During the bombing I organized a special group to help > the 130,000 workers left jobless by NATO bombing their factories. We > wanted to do more than just rebuild; we tried at the same time to > restructure our economy, to increase the number of small and medium > enterprises. We were able to set up 1050 such businesses. This > created 33,000 new jobs. > > Israel: Private or public sector? > > Ivkovic: Mainly private. The Ministry developed relations between the > [scientific and technical] Institutes and these displaced workers. We > collected 2900 plans for small and medium businesses, programs to > produce goods using Serbian resources instead of importing these > products. To finance these new businesses, after the bombing we > collected money by asking everyone with a job to give one or two > day's pay and using this as well as money from the Serbian government > we offered the displaced workers five year loans at excellent rates > so they could set up their own production facilities. > > Israel: So these businesses were privately owned by groups of > employees? > > Ivkovic: Yes. Up until then we had relatively few small and medium > enterprises. We wanted to strengthen the small business sector, > especially in the villages. It's our opinion that these small, > profitable businesses are the way to stop the flow of young people to > the towns. > > Israel: Just to get clear, these enterprises were privately owned by > the people who worked there? > > Ivkovic: Yes. > > Israel: Not just by one man? > > Ivkovic: No no no by the people. Each unemployed worker could take a > loan for himself, but several workers could get a collective loan and > apply it to one business. 50 of them could get 50 times more money. > > Israel: So they could start something of some size. > > Ivkovic: Yes, but it would be their own. Their own factory. Their own > enterprise. > > Israel: You know the Western propaganda says Yugoslavia was run so > that a few people made a lot of money and everybody else got nothing. > > Ivkovic: It's not true. You must understand a couple of things here. > First of all, there is private business in Serbia, and this is > nothing new. After 1945 we had people who owned land in the villages, > people who owned private enterprises. Not so much in the 1940s, > 1950s, and 1960s. But in the 1970s and 1980s this became far more > common. A lot of these people established their own small offices, > markets, enterprises and factories and now I think 50% of our > economic life is in the private sector and it's a very profitable > private sector. These owners are people of varying political > viewpoints. > > The second thing is, we have been under a United States imposed > embargo for 8 years and during that embargo some people who had > previously been criminals went into business exporting or importing > goods which were under embargo, and they made a lot of money. Those > people are not the socialist party. We are a party of over 500,000 > people, mainly ordinary working people. Of course whenever a party is > in power it attracts some opportunists, some who are there for > reasons other than principle; but those people have left us or are > leaving us now and as for the ones who remain, what possible gain is > there in it for them? > > Foreign investment > > Ivkovic: When I was Serbian Minister for Construction I proposed a > Federal Law On Foreign investment. On the [Serbian] Republican level > we have a concession law and a law for ownership transformation. But > then came the embargo and we couldn't do as much as we wanted at that > time. > > Israel: So you want foreign investment? > > Ivkovic: Yes, why not? In the past I was involved in negotiations > with several very powerful groups of foreign investors about > concessions in road construction and electric power production. > Unfortunately everything that happened with Kosovo and Metohija put a > halt to those negotiations. [Kosovo and Metohija is the Serbian name > for what the West calls 'Kosovo.'] > > Israel: I don't know if you read the piece that Chossudovsky and I > wrote about the IMF and the World Bank and their harmful effects. > > Ivkovic: Yes. > > Israel: We argued that when the IMF and the World Bank enter a > country it is subjected to piracy - you know, basically stripped. > > Ivkovic: It's a problem for me to express myself in English. The IMF > and the World Bank have some special propositions which, how shall I > say, cover a country with a very strong hand. This can put a country > in a very bad position. I prefer that foreign investors come here > with their own money. If we were covered by the World Bank we would > be in chains. > > Israel: They're sharks. > > Ivkovic: Yes. That is true. That is true. You see Bulgaria and > Romania are now in a worse position than Yugoslavia. We had sanctions > and we were bombed yet we are in a better position than Bulgaria and > Romania because they have been put into IMF chains and now, in > addition to being worse off, they will also have to repay loans for > the next 20 or 30 years. Repay with interest. > > [The interview continued with the addition of a translator.] > > Israel: Is it your opinion that the IMF and World Bank should be kept > out of Yugoslavia? > > Ivkovic: Yes. We've been living through hard times. Eight years of > sanctions plus last year's bombardment made our lives very harsh. The > level of production in our country is 40% of 1990. We're certainly in > a need of a fresh injection of money. To help this situation we > passed a Federal law on foreign investments and a law covering > ownership transformation. And on the Republican level, the Republic > of Serbia passed a law on foreign concessions. There are some related > laws regarding taxes and customs regulations. These laws are designed > to allow foreign investments but at the same time to make sure the > profit drawn from such investments are reinvested in the country. > > Israel: So it can't be taken out? > > Ivkovic: Right. We are by current law [i.e., laws passed before the > October 5th coup] open to foreign investments. We have developed a > very extensive and detailed plan for utilizing our resources such as > energy, roads, highways, railways and waterways and also agricultural > land for industrial-agricultural exploitation. We had all these plans > in place but the sanctions and last year's bombing and destruction > hindered our ability to go ahead. > > Speaking as a citizen, I am inclined to accept capital or investment > coming from corporations rather than from the International Monetary > Fund and World Bank. It is my opinion that both the IMF and the World > Bank set up stringent rules that bring a country close to colonial > status. > > Israel: Perhaps that's why they don't like you. > > Ivkovic: At this time in particular it would be extremely dangerous > for these two banks to enter our country. But corporations and other > financial groups would be more welcome. We and they both would > benefit. > > We are still a very rich and resourceful country despite all our > difficulties and ordeals. We have a huge amount of state and public > assets that have not been privatized. In 1966 we sold Italian and > Greek partners 49% of our telecommunications industry. That brought > in one billion 750 million Deutschmark. About 800 million dollars. > > Israel: Isn't that a little low for half your telecommunications > industry? > > Ivkovic: Well I would say we did better than the Hungarians who sold > similar facilities for a much larger portion of ownership and got > less. > > The electrical energy system and the ownership of electrical energy > assets, meaning production and distribution, has not been privatized. > For example consider the thermoelectric power plant called Kolubara. > The state invested 500,000,000 dollars in this plant. It's run on > coal. There is room for another three hundred million dollars > investment, open to foreign capital as well. > > Israel: Would you keep the majority of ownership? > > Ivkovic: Look, Jared, this is an interesting deal. The investment > would be OK if the foreign investors got 100% providing there was a > time limit on foreign control. It could be five years; it could be > ten years. It depends on the mutually accepted conditions. So the > foreign investors could be given the biggest chunk providing their > period of control was limited by mutual agreement. > > Regarding the oil industry, in our country, privatization hasn't > touched it but it's a huge prospect for investments. The same goes > for the exploitation of railroad traffic. Regarding the development > of highway communications there is great potential for foreign > investment considering our geostrategic and commercial position in > the Balkans, as a connection to the Middle East. > > We developed a privatization law regarding large state run facilities > like the machine facility in Trstenik which used to manufacture > hydraulic equipment for Boeing. There are so many such valuable > assets intact in Serbia, untouched by privatization, free for very > lucrative investments. We had that all worked out before the > sanctions and aerial destruction stopped further progress. > > We developed detailed plans that could apportion part of the profit > from these foreign investments into pension and other social funds so > it would be just. At the same time our plans involve reinvestment of > profit within the country. > > Yugoslavia has a very rich pool, a highly educated working class and > technical class, ready to get to work, to produce. > > Israel: If foreigners invest in Yugoslavia, and if in return they get > a facility which previously was socially owned, doesn't the country > become a colony? > > Ivkovic: We have legal restraints to prevent accepting conditions > that would make us a colony. Foreign investors have to agree to abide > by our laws as part of any deal. > > Our country has around 2 billion dollars frozen in foreign banks as a > result of the sanctions imposed on us and we would like to get this > returned with interest accrued. We expect the international community > to show understanding for our plight and to relieve us from credit > and debts to some extent and give us some priority in that regard. > > Israel: Are you saying you expect that or that in a just situation it > would happen? > > Ivkovic: That has been our request. We would request these > concessions but I'm personally pretty pessimistic about them doing > it. > > Israel: When you say you're going to request these concessions, or > when you say that you have these laws, you beg the question of the > political situation, this semi-coup d'etat. > > Let me spell out my own view. > > I see President Kostunica as a fundamentally illegal figure who is > and could only be in power because of international intrigue which > created a subversive apparatus that committed crimes against people > and property. People in government and business have been intimidated > and forced to sign documents under pressure, turning state or private > property over to what amounts to thugs and gangsters, and this has > been glorified by the Western media which has suddenly discovered > that it loves popular revolutions. In the present situation to give > this interview is an act of heroism. Therefore you are not talking > about carrying out these measures in the present tense. You are > talking about what the legal government had planned. A plan you would > like to return to. Is that correct? > > Ivkovic: Let us say that in the present circumstances of instability > and turmoil foreign investors may not be much attracted to our > country. > > Israel: Sharks will be attracted. Sharks like turmoil. It justifies > an iron hand and you can steal a lot in the midst of confusion. > > .Ivkovic: In regard to what you say, the Bulgarian and Romanian > examples are very educational for our future. I agree that the coup > d'etat was well organized and conducted with the participation of > certain parts of the so-called international community. > > Israel: Isn't 'international community' a great euphemism? The United > States, Germany, Britain and a few hangers-on = the international > community. In 'Der Spiegel' magazine they had this article which > reported all of them boasting and competing over how much money they > gave the 'Yugoslav democratic process.' Nothing like a well-financed > democratic process. Of course the article said the U.S. government > gave, but then it quoted the Germans saying, 'We gave too!' and then > Norway piped in: "Us too, us too!" This was the Oct. 7 'Der Spiegel'. > The article also said that Kostunica was actually picked to run for > President by U.S. Secretary of State Albright and German Foreign > Minister Fischer at a meeting, I believe it was in December. > > You know, Yugoslavia is a beautiful fish and all the sharks want a > chunk. So even though it politically hurts their various proxies in > DOS [the pro-Western parties that now control the Yugoslav > government] and the civil society groups and the independent media, > even though having these foreign powers boast that they funded these > guys hurts them, the foreign powers have to boast because they all > want to stake their claim. > > So the sharks say, "We did it!" and meanwhile their local quislings > say "No no, we're independent! We resent your help!" And then the > sharks say "Yes! You're right! You're independent! We don't even like > you because you are extremely nationalistic!" You see? > > Ivkovic: [Laughs] I see everything. Each is striving each to get a > head of the others. They made such a grave mistake. They boasted that > they planned the details of this coup d'etat five or six months > before it took place which means of course that the coup had nothing > to do with the outcome of the Presidential elections. > > Factors Leading up to the Coup > > Ivkovic: Unfortunately, the proper authorities did not counter this > vicious plan. We know that Mr. Montgomery, the US envoy in Budapest, > provided an immense pool of money for the coup. Money flowed in like > water. But these illegal activities were not properly dealt with. > > There are two more things I must say. The Socialist Party made some > mistakes in the election campaign. Apart from that and the > unprecedented external interference, the economic sanctions and the > NATO bombardment had a big effect. They caused the standard of living > to drop considerably and at the same time, because of the bombardment > we had to apportion much of the budget, which otherwise would have > gone for salaries for teachers, professors and other social > employees, into rebuilding bridges, roads and infrastructure which > the bombing destroyed, as well as building housing and setting up > businesses. This created a lot of dissatisfaction. The diversion of > resources, amidst harsh circumstances, was cunningly exploited by the > DOS people leading up to and during the election, providing a social > basis for carrying out the coup d'etat. > > Political Situation Since the Coup > > Ivkovic: The elections were Federal [Yugoslav] but the coup d'etat > affected the Republican structure as well. > > Israel: How? > > Ivkovic: The opposition commandos forced their way into offices and > production facilities or government facilities in a systematic way, > kicked out the tenants or official employees and replaced them with > their own. And the Interior Ministry authorities did not interfere.. > > Israel: Is that terror still going on? > > Ivkovic: Because of all these circumstances we had to compromise our > position and accept DOS as a part of the administration. They filled > up some departments they'd never been in before. But we insisted that > they agree to return all the kicked-out officials to their positions > again, to restore the condition of legality and order we had before. > > Israel: Has that happened? > > Ivkovic: This is on the promise level now. > > Israel: Who made the promise and what did the Socialist Party give in > exchange? > > Ivkovic: The agreement was signed by Kostunica for DOS, by the > President of the Republic of Serbia, Milutinovic, from the Socialist > Party and by the Serbian Renewal Party. The Socialists let DOS into > Serbian government positions and in exchange DOS promised to restore > order and return all those who had been kicked out to their > positions. > > Israel: Have they been returned? > > Ivkovic: Well there have been no returns but they did stop some of > the harassment. It's amazing how they persecute. They have developed > an atmosphere of suspicion, spying, investigation. Everybody is > suspicious, everyone is investigating everyone else. The most > critical problem is the media outlets. It's much worse than what they > claimed when the Socialist Party was in power. I think many > journalists will be kicked out and left jobless. > > Effects on the Press > > In the past we could buy Politika and Politika Ekspres, two major > Belgrade papers pulling to the Left. At the same time we could > purchase Glas, which means Voice, and Blic, both on the Right, and we > used to buy Novosti, 'Evening News' in the Center. So everybody had a > chance to find the truth. Now journalists will be jobless because we > have just one paper: all papers publish the same stories, written the > same. You can switch 20 TV channels and you just see DOS. > > I watch only TV ANEM and listen to radio B2-92. It used to be the > most fierce opposition voice; to be honest they are still in > opposition; they are the only station I can go and talk on. Also the > other radio, student radio, called INDEX. > > Israel: That's wacky. B2-92 is funded by the U.S. > > Ivkovic: That's right. But now they are the only outlet for the > truth. > > Israel: Unbelievable. > > Ivkovic: On the TV station ANEM the journalists seem somewhat > independent. > > Israel: But that was funded by the National Endowment for Democracy. > > Ivkovic: Yes yes yes. Jared, imagine what the other TV outlets are > like when these two are considered the most open to different views. > > Israel: Sounds like the U.S. > > Ivkovic: [Laughs.] > > Jared: Here's my concern. In terms of this agreement that Milutinovic > has signed, this DOS promise to restore law and order, I am afraid > that DOS' masters, the US and Germany, want the job finished. The big > problem the pro-U.S. and pro-German forces have is they didn't > succeed in turning the army. Now they want to get into a position > where they can take more extreme action. > > Ivkovic: Yes that's also my major concern: how the army will position > itself. In our country an open market is the place where all the > politics are loudly and openly expressed but now the market is silent > - no whisper - people are very depressed - they move from one channel > on the radio and TV to another and they see the same exact news > presented in the same way and now it is dawning on them where they > have arrived. > > We have agreed to elections for the Serbian Parliament, for December > 23rd. > > Israel: Won't those elections take place in a situation where the > parties opposed to Kostunica have no media? > > Ivkovic: That is quite correct. And these elections were initiated > under heavy pressure. We have no media access. Holding these > elections a year earlier than required was agreed to under pressure. > Following the coup d'etat pressure was brought to bear on the > Republican level regarding Parliament and the Serbian government. > > Israel: So all the anti-DOS parties, the Socialist Party, the > nationalists, the Radical Party and others - all their media is gone? > > Ivkovic: They are allowed one hour a day. DOS seized all TV and radio > outlets with armed units. There are only a few left untouched, a few > newspapers, a few TV and radio stations in the interior. > > Israel: But they haven't seized control of the Army by force. Is that > correct? > > Ivkovic: There have been no changes in the Army ranks so far. > > Israel: Aren't there laws in Yugoslavia that make it illegal for > foreign agents like Djindjic to take money from foreign countries and > distribute it to over-throw the government? > > Ivkovic: Of course. It's all punishable under the law. > > Israel: In other words since the so-called civil society groups like > the Committee for Free and Fair Elections, the G-17 so called > economists, the Women in Black, you know Vesna Pesic and the others, > the Civic Union gang, this Mayor Ilic from Cacak - on the internet a > researcher found news articles where he is described as meeting with > U.S. Special Balkans Robert Gelbard seven times - when you have all > these groups funded and organized and trained by the U.S. and Germany > with massive foreign bribes, why were these foreign agents permitted > to operate? Is there any country in the world where such people would > not have been jailed? > > Ivkovic: Jared, I agree this is a very strange situation. Why some > people in the Ministry of the Interior did not do the job, as > required by the law, remains to be investigated. > > *** > > Further reading > > Concerning the terror directed against socialists and nationalists > since the Oct. 5 coup, please see: > > * 'On the list, they had me marked as a nationalist' at > http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/onthelist.htm > Interview conducted the day before the Oct. 5 coup. > > * 'These Djindjic people are brown shirts' at > http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/djindjic.htm > An interview conducted after the Oct. 5 coup. > > * 'Reign of Terror in Serbia', at > http://emperors-clothes.com/news/attack.htm > Statement of Serbian Socialist Party on nationwide attack on their > offices. > > For more on the general situation in Yugoslavia now, see: > > Concerning the U.S. creation of a subversive apparatus in Yugoslavia, > see 'U.S. Arrogance and Yugoslav Elections' at > http://emperors-clothes.com/engl.htm > > For more on what's been happening in Yugoslavia now, see: > > * 'Djindjic Calls for Complete Yugoslav Submission to U.S.' at > http://emperors-clothes.com/news/submit.htm > Discusses the consequences of turning Yugoslavia into a U.S. > protectorate > > * 'The International Monetary Fund And The Yugoslav Elections' at > http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/1.htm > On the G-17 group of economists and what they have planned for > Yugoslavia. > > * 'Kostunica Coalition Drives Up Prices & Blames...Milosevic' at > http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/triples.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? 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