-Caveat Lector- ********* Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 00:05:52 +0200 From: "Thomas 'Mike' Michlmayr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: FC: Germany plans DOS attacks against overseas sites --Der Spiegel On Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 09:31:10 -0700, Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...] > For those who aren't able to read German texts: According to a recent > SPIEGEL ONLINE report, Otto Schily, German Home Secretary, publicly > considers plans to perform "Official" DOS-attacks on foreign websites the whole thing got started by an article in the washington post which is available at the URL below: http://www.steptoe.com/webdoc.nsf/Files/schily/$file/schily.html -- Thomas 'Mike' Michlmayr | ignorami: n: The BOFH art of folding problem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | lusers into representational shapes. *********** From: "Bill Fason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Germany plans DOS attacks against overseas sites --Der Spiegel - English edition Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 14:06:51 -0500 SPIEGEL ONLINE - 06. April 2001, 18:21 URL: http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/politik/0,1518,126921,00.html MIT HACKERMETHODEN GEGEN NEONAZIS [WITH HACKER METHODS AGAINST NEO-NAZIS] Von Frank Patalong Trans. By [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minister of the Interior Otto Schily is considering plans to use hackers to take down foreign websites. Last Spring hackers used similar methods to block access to parts of the Internet. HAMBURG - Hacker attacks sponsored by the German Ministry of the Interior do not "enter the realm of the illegal," argued Dirk Inger, spokesman for the Ministry, rather such attacks would represent "the defense of our system of laws against illegal attacks by those who consciously exploit the international medium of the Internet." Various steps must be contemplated in terms of their accordance with law, effectiveness, and probability of success. Still unanswered is the question of who would actually carry out the denial-of-service attacks. Since last year's worldwide DOS attacks on commercial sites such as Yahoo! and eBay, Schilly has scraped up against the the dangers of cyberspace. As a reaction to the DOS attacks and the "I Love You" virus in spring 200, Schily set up an "Internet Task Force" to protect Germany's "critical infrastructure." That sounds defensive, but it appears to have taken on new meaning. Up until now the "Internet Task Force" has appeared to be more of a government debate club, but Schily seeks to transform its role into something more of a "rapid deployment force." In an interview with the Washington Post on December 21, 2000, that went largely unnoticed in Germany, Schily argued that defensive measures could include certain or "forward defense" variations. NeoNazi websites are perceived as endangering the state [staatsgef�hrdend], and they are difficult to shut down, especially when they are housed on web servers in the United States where they are protected by the First Amendment to the US Constitution. The US First Amendment extends greater freedom of expression than in any other county in the world, protecting even Holocaust deniers. Against this stands German justice since December 12, 2000. On that day, the German Supreme Court decided that Neo-Nazi and hate speech can be prosecuted under Garman law even when published in other countries. The American instigators of Neo-Nazi websites are disturbed by this decision very little. They feel protected in that there is very propect that they would face extradition by American authorities to Germany for acts committed in the US which may violate German speech laws, stated John Russell, then spokesperson for the US Department of Justice, in a reaction to the decision of the German Supreme Court. DO THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS? Schily does not want to come to terms with this situation. Next to the officials ways, Schily told the Post, he could imagine bringing down Neo-Nazi sites with spam or DOS attacks, if other methods are not successful. Alan Davidson at the Center for Democracy and Technology in Washington thinks this is a crazy [aberwitzig - crazy, terrible] idea. "This would mean that one breaks the law in order to shut down a site which is legally operating in another country." The German branch of the respected Internet Society (Isoc) at Saint Augustin shares Davidson's perception. "Isoc.de supports the passage of legal regulations for the Internet. For Isoc.de. the Internet is no wild west. [rechtsfrierer Raum - "lawless space"] For precisely this reason, it is not justified to use dubious methods to close off access to foreign websites that are operating under the protection of free speech laws in that country, even when such sites contain extreme rightwing content," according to a statement issued by Isoc.de. The Ministry of the Interior sees it differently. While DOS attacks are legally pursued, apparently the belief in Berlin is, carefully stated, that a very laudable goal justifies a controversial means. In terms of the chances of success, the DOS attacks can hardly be beat: they accomplish in minutes what might take months in a trial. However it eventually plays out, it will be heatedly discussed in the coming days. ********** Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 20:17:12 -0400 From: Marc Getty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Heiko Spallek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Germany plans DOS attacks against overseas sites --Der Spiegel Heiko, This is pretty dumb to actually think this could ever work. Even if you ignore all of the legal and political implications, it still would never work. The upstream ISPs for the site in question would just black hole German network(s) upon finding out this was happening to their network. Forget all of the legal and political implications, network stability, also known as money to ISPs, is much more important. They could black hole a German ISP, or even the entire nation of Germany in minutes at best, a few hours at worst. This would all take place long before the media could report anything, and long long before the politicians could even comment, let alone do anything about it. It would be okay for this idiot to think such things, or to even discuss the possibility of doing such things with his colleagues, but it is complete idiocy to tell Der Spiegel of these thoughts. As a father you should be happy that such idiocy still runs free in the world, this almost guarantees that your children have a chance of becoming very successful in life. -Marc *********** Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 01:11:14 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: thud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: FC: Germany plans DOS attacks against overseas sites --Der Spiegel At 11:31 AM 4/7/2001, you wrote: >********* > >Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 14:11:30 -0700 >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stanton McCandlish) >Subject: Fwd: [FYI] German Government considers DOS-Attacks against > undesired foreign websites > >An (anonymized) headsup from a German: > > >For those who aren't able to read German texts: According to a recent >SPIEGEL ONLINE report, Otto Schily, German Home Secretary, publicly >considers plans to perform "Official" DOS-attacks on foreign websites >which are deemed to violate applicable German law. Obviously Schily >thinks that DOS attacks might in particular be a suitable procedure >to combat nazi websites hosted in the U.S. and there being protected >by the First Amendment. However, even other undesired content banned >by German law might be honoured by an "Official DOS Attack". > >Are there any friends abroad who might explain the principles of law >to our Government? I think there should be as much forign media >coverage as possible in order to prevent the worst possible >developments. [snippage] Declan, I have to laugh. Germany is insignificant as far as 'Net presence is concerned. The U.S. could blast Germany right off the 'Net without even breaking a sweat. Look at who owns the satellites and transoceanic cables that carry the bulk of 'Net traffic to/from Germany. Hint: it ain't the Germans. (I'm a lamer as far as dark-side hacking goes, but I did manage to take down a FreeNet in FL a few years ago, when a particularly obnoxious luser wouldn't stop sending me unwanted de-mail. It helped having a connection to the fiber backbone connecting the five major supercomputing centers in the U.S. at the time...) Furthermore, while German "crackers" have shown some talent, I don't think they'd last long in a DOS war waged against U.S. programmers. In short, Germany doesn't dare screw with the U.S. when it comes to the 'Net. Some of the former Soviet states pose a far greater threat, IMHO. When you're looking for Warez, do you go for German URLs or those in former Soviet bloc nations. Best regards, Synergy P.S. I read your articles on an a regular basis. I've been on the 'Net in one way, shape or form for about two decades now. You are one of the few 'Net journalists who seems to have a real clue. Please keep up the great work! *********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if it remains intact. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance�not soap-boxing�please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'�with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds�is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. 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