-Caveat Lector-
>-Caveat Lector-
>
>goolie smith wrote:
> >
> > -Caveat Lector-
> >
> > <sigh>
> >
> > ok, give me the answers to these questions
> >
> > Was Ariel Sharon in command of the occupied area where the massacres
>took
> > place ?
>
>Yes he was.
>
> >
> > Is there a Geneva convention (4th) which places responsibility of a
> > population upon the person in charge ?
>
>I don't know. But if there is, that's not the law under which Sharon is
>being charged. It is a special law recently enacted but it's not clear
>to me by whom.
>
Special law ? to be a war criminal you have to break the Geneva conventions
and they have been in force for over 50 years. ariel sharon has broken the
geneva conventions pretaining to the safeguarding of civilians at a time
when the land is occupied
since you do not know and might not believe me ill give you a link and you
can find out for yourself. http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm
Im hoping that you'll trust the site, it is the United Nations site after
all.
>Are you well versed in international law?
>
> > Are you jewish ?
>
>Yes.
>
> > These questions should sort it out, the first two will show why sharon
> > should be indicted as a war criminal,
>No they don't. You don't know that law. You are making presumptions based
>on ignorance. For Sharon to be indicted as a war criminal he would have
>to have had intent. Further more, it would have to be proven.
please dont lecture me on law, and if you were brave enough you would debate
without having to resort to mud slinging.
War crimes do not have to show or prove intent, crimes against humanity and
genocide however do need to. Ariel sharon is NOT being accused of crimes
against humanity or genocide. However he is being accused of breaking
geneva conventions.
If you still do not believe me, here is another link
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ign0
This link is the ministry of foriegn affairs of the israeli goverment. This
site details a report by Yitzhak Kahan commissioned to find out what
happened. What it found was that Ariel sharon was indirectly responsible
for the killings but directly responsible for disregarding the safety of the
people at the camps
Look, nurev, be brave and be a man to know what is right, Im not backing
arafat, syrians, egyptians, israelis or anyone else. In fact i would like to
see their cumuppance. I am also not attacking the jews/israelis, but what i
am humbly trying to do is show you that a man who should be indicted and at
LEAST tried for war crimes is now in control of a very powerful country. Do
you not agree that he should be at least tried ?
The Kahan commission has already found him guilty.
>As it stands now,
>propaganda aside, he had the nearby sport stadium cleaned and ready to move
>the inhabitants of Sabra and Shatilla into for identification. He was
>looking
>for Arafat's glorious fighters left behind to start new terrorist cells.
>There
>were also Shiites, Muslim Arabs who lived in that neighborhood before the
>Palestinians flooded in. The Israelis had no truck with these people.
>
>So there is no evidence pointing to malevolent intent by the Israelis. The
>opposite is true. There are witnesses who have publicly stated that Sharon
>gave orders to protect non-combatants.
>
>The worst he could be accused of and responsible for is negligence due
>to bad judgment. The Lebanese Christians had been fighting for supremacy in
>Lebanon for a long time. They were corrupt, thieving fascists who would use
>the Israelis as much as the Israelis were using them. They fought among
>themselves viciously. Tribe against tribe, and faction against faction.
>They
>didn't want to be dominated by Syria. The Muslim Arab Lebanese majority
>didn't
>mind Syria and didn't want to be dominated by the Christians who were
>backed
>by Israel. The Christians hated the Palestinians who came to Lebanon after
>being driven out of Jordan by King Hussein for starting an insurrection
>among
>the 60% Palestinian population of Jordan. The Palestinians were not nice
>neighbors and wanted to take over Southern Lebanon.
>
>The country was in chaos, and the PLO had a perfect launching platform with
>a weak government from which to carry out a war of attrition against
>Northern
>Israel.
>
>The Phalangists and the Israelis had common enemies but different agendas.
>The Israelis wanted the Phalangists to rule Lebanon. After the Syrians
>assassinated Bashir Gemayel, the Israelis took charge of West Beirut even
>though they promised they wouldn't. Then they inherited Sabra and Shatilla.
>
>Then the Sabra and Shatilla hit the fan. The Israelis were trapped in a
>mess
>of their own making.
>
>Sharon was the political scapegoat for the mess in Lebanon. He deserved
>what he got. I am not an admirer of Arik Sharon.
>
>So you really don't know what you are talking about. And you don't really
>care much for what actually happened either do you? I'll bet you don't
>know the names of the actual killers. Do you? In all this discussion you
>have
>not once called for the capture, indictment and trial of the actual persons
>in charge of the massacre. Why is that? Care to venture a guess Goolie.
>
>But it is all a moot point. He will not be brought up on any kind of
>charges anyway. He is a sitting
>head of state. And he has not lost a war against the West.
>
>It's all about Palestinian propaganda. Just as the subject bar stated.
>
> > the last one will show the rest of us
> > why you dont want to see the truth.
>
>Don't be so presumptuous again. The war criminal charges are not true
>because they are not true. Not because I don't want to see the truth.
>
>Sharon was a young officer in charge of a mass killing in the removal of
>an Arab village in 1948 I believe. I don't remember the name of the village
>but it is well known. THAT is the crime he should be indicted for. Not
>Sabra/Shatilla. The Palestinians know that quite well. Sabra and Shatilla
>is a much more recent and gaudy massacre still in most people's memory.
>
>Finally, and you should really think about this, there was absolutely NO
>BENEFIT whatsoever to ordering the massacre, and every reason on earth not
>to. Sharon was obligated by treaty to protect the Palestinian civilians
>after
>the Americans and others protected Arafat's losers as they left Lebanon. He
>was under world scrutiny and Israel was being condemned by the usual
>suspects for the invasion. While I'm sure he would have loved to finish off
>Arafat and Fatah, he had no reason to harm women, children and old people.
>They were not a threat to Israel.
>
>No one remembers why Sharon went went into Lebanon
>originally. It was to finally get rid of the PLO who were shelling and
>rocketing and infiltrating northern Israel every day for years. They were
>killing Israelis on a daily basis.
>
>The plan was to ferret out any Fatah fighters left behind by Arafat in the
>camps. This is why the Israelis surrounded the camps while the Phalangists
>went in to find and kill them. Arafat's "fighters" committed many massacres
>and atrocities against the South Christians' villages. The Phalangists
>wanted
>revenge.
>
>Sharon allowed the Phalangists to go after Fatah in the camps for several
>reasons. He had sustained many Israeli casualties in the invasion. The
>invasion
>was not popular among all Israelis. He didn't want more casualties so he
>turned
>it over to the Phalangists who were more than happy to kill PLO.
>
>The Israelis trained the Phalangists. The Israeli commanders expected them
>to behave like soldiers. They were not stupid for having that expectation.
>But Sharon could not know that his Palangist commander was secretly working
>for Syria. And he could not know that Hobeika was about to create a huge
>diversion from the Gamayel assaination by creating a massacre of disgusting
>proportions.
>
>I'm sure there were Israeli soldiers who didn't care. Just as there are
>Palestinians
>who see suicide bombers that kill innocent Israeli civilians as martyrs and
>heros. This is war. These people hate each other.
>
>Keep this posting. In the highly unlikely case that this will ever go to
>trial, this information will come out.
>
>Joshua2
>
> >
> > >From: "Nurev Ind." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: Conspiracy Theory Research List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: Re: [CTRL] Sharon War Criminal:
> > >StupidgullibleLiberalsandPalestinianpropaganda. 1/2
> > >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:53:30 -0400
> > >
> > >-Caveat Lector-
> > >
> > >goolie smith wrote:
> > > >
> > > > -Caveat Lector-
> > > >
> > > > ah nurev, nurev, nurev dont tell me your going to start personal
> > > > attacks against me.
> > > >
> > > > Yes i did read the second part, the disscussion here is on Ariel
>Sharon
> > >not
> > > > the syrians or the phalange or any other group. If you would like
>we
> > >could
> > > > discuss that on another thread, but this thread has the topic of
>"Sharon
> > >War
> > > > Criminal".
> > >
> > >No. The subject is - Re: [CTRL] Sharon War Criminal: Stupid gullible
> > >Liberals
> > >and Palestinian propaganda. 1/2
> > >
> > >Which means that the information you describe below is Palestinian
> > >disinformation.
>
>========================================
>
>
>Sharon sued in Belgium over 1982 Palestinian massacres
>
>BRUSSELS
>8 JUNE 2001
>http://metimes.com/2K1/issue2001-23/reg/sharon_sued_in.htm
>
>Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is being sued in a Belgian court
>for the 1982 massacres of 800 to 2,000 Palestinian civilians in
>Lebanese refugee camps, the daily Le Soir reported on June 1.
>
>The suit was filed under a unique 1993 law that allows Belgian courts
>to try persons here, regardless of their nationality, for genocide
>and other crimes against humanity committed abroad.
>
>Sharon was due to visit Brussels next week, but Israeli television
>reported the prime minister had cancelled the trip in the wake of a
>suicide bomb attack in Tel Aviv, which killed 17 people.
>
>The newspaper said Belgian judicial authorities were studying whether
>the suit against him was admissible under terms of the law, which is
>currently being used to try four Rwandans in connection with the 1994
>genocide in their central African country.
>
>The plaintiffs in the suit against Sharon are a mix of Palestinians,
>Lebanese, Moroccans and Belgians grouped in an ad hoc committee.
>
>They accuse Sharon of allowing Christian militias to slaughter
>between 800 and 2,000 Palestinian refugees at the Sabra and Shatila
>camps located in an area of Lebanon controlled by the Israeli
>military after Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon when Sharon was
>defense minister.
>
>An Israeli commission of enquiry in 1983 found Sharon indirectly
>responsible for the killings, a finding that forced him to resign his
>post.
>
>And the United Nations has officially classified the Sabra and
>Shatila killings as acts of genocide, Eric David, international law
>professor at the Free University of Brussels, told Le Soir.
>
>Last January, when he was campaigning for prime minister, Sharon
>expressed his regrets for the "terrible tragedy" of the 1982
>massacres, but refused to apologize.
>
>"What it was," he said in a press interview, "was an act of killing
>carried out by Arab Christians against Arab Muslims."
>
>Arabs also blame Sharon for provoking the current intifada with his
>visit to east Jerusalem's Al Aqsa mosque compound, the third holiest
>site in Islam, last September 28.
>
>[ Which is also false, but pervasive PLO propaganda. - J2 ]
>
>AFP
>=========================================
>
>Tribunal head: I didn't say Sharon is indictable
>
>By David Zev Harris and Michal Meyer
>http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/06/20/News/News.28659.html
>
>JERUSALEM (June 20) - The BBC Panorama documentary on the role of
>Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in Sabra and Shatilla is continuing to
>cause waves in Israel and in judicial circles.
>
>A leading international war-crimes lawyer, who participated in the
>program, is insisting he did not say Sharon should be indicted for
>his role in the massacre of Palestinian refugees in the Lebanese
>camps.
>
>Despite reports to the contrary, Judge Richard Goldstone said he told
>the BBC he would talk about international war-crimes law in general
>but would not speak about the specifics of Sharon's involvement.
>Goldstone, a former chief prosecutor for the UN's criminal tribunals,
>made his comments in an interview with Jerusalem Post Radio.
>
>The following is taken from the official transcript of the BBC
>program:
>
>Panorama: "I understand that as a judge in a South African court, you
>don't want to get into labelling people in other countries as 'war
>criminals,' but in your assessment of command responsibility, isn't
>it reasonable to say that if responsibility goes all the way to the
>top, to the person who gave the orders, that potentially makes Ariel
>Sharon a war criminal?"
>
>Goldstone: "Well, it depends very much on the facts, but if the
>person who gave the command knows, or should know, on the facts
>available to him or her that there's a situation where innocent
>civilians are going to be injured or killed, then that person is as
>responsible - in fact, in my book more responsible, even - than the
>people who carry out the orders."
>
>In his interview with Jerusalem Post Radio, Goldstone said: "I agreed
>to speak to [the BBC] as an expert on the law in general, on command
>responsibility, but I said I would not in any way comment on any
>liability, criminal or civil, of Ariel Sharon and I didn't do so.
>
>"I haven't yet seen the program, but if it comes across that way it's
>incorrect... I certainly didn't comment on the responsibility of
>Sharon."
>
>The program was broadcast in the same week a Belgian court begins
>considering whether Sharon can be brought to trial for his part in
>the 1982 massacre.
>
>At least 23 survivors of the Christian Phalange militia rampage in
>the camps are trying to see those responsible are put behind bars.
>
>Their lawyer, Michael Verhaeghe, claims those responsible include
>then defense minister Sharon, Maj.-Gen. (res.) Amos Yaron, who was
>chief infantry and paratroop officer, and the Phalangists, who did
>the actual killing.
>
>In an interview with Jerusalem Post Radio, Verhaeghe said all that
>interests his clients is justice.
>
>"These crimes being the most serious offenses possible, also in
>Belgian national order and in international order, the maximum
>sentence is life imprisonment," said Verhaeghe. "According to our
>legal analysis, we consider [Sharon] to be morally responsible... In
>our file there are more-than-sufficient indications of guilt."
>
>Later today, a magistrate will be officially appointed to investigate
>the matter.
>
>The Palestinians do not have Belgian citizenship, but Verhaeghe
>maintains they have the right to bring the matter to a court in
>Brussels. In 1993, Belgian law was changed to allow this type of
>complaint to be filed by non-nationals. This, said Verhaeghe, was in
>line with the Nuremberg, Tokyo, and Eichmann decisions.
>
>However, Ruth Lapidot, a professor of international law at Hebrew
>University, believes it is highly unlikely Sharon will be brought to
>trial, given the rulings contained in the 1949 Fourth Geneva
>Convention, which deals with the protection of people in times of
>war.
>
>"It says... 'they have an obligation to search for persons alleged to
>have committed or to have ordered to be committed,' which means the
>penal sanctions apply only to a person who either has committed
>himself or has ordered to be committed some of these terrible deeds,"
>Lapidot explained.
>
>The International Committee of the Red Cross interpretation of the
>convention suggests no legal responsibility is incurred by those who
>do not intervene to prevent or to put an end to a breach of the
>convention, she noted.
>
>Two additional considerations make it unlikely that Verhaeghe's
>mission will succeed, said Lapidot. "Heads of states and prime
>ministers cannot be brought to trial while serving, according to
>international law."
>
>Additionally, if Belgian law is not in conformity with international
>law, Belgian jurisdiction could be ruled out. "The Belgian court can
>exercise universal jurisdiction with regard to offenses under
>international law but not offenses which the Belgians think are
>appropriate."
>
>Despite Lapidot's skepticism, the Belgian magistrate, known as the
>judge of instruction, will spend the coming weeks deciding what
>action should be taken, including whether to call witnesses and to
>hold a full trial before a jury. The magistrate's work is secret in
>the first stage, while he or she is acting on behalf of the state.
>
>Asked how long Sharon would have to serve in jail if found guilty,
>Verhaeghe cited the Rwandan war criminals recently sentenced in
>Belgium to a 15-year-term, saying they will actually serve five or
>six years.
>
>To hear the full interviews with Goldstone, Verhaeghe, and Lapidot,
>click on www.jpostradio.com.
>
>� 1995-2001, The Jerusalem Post
>====================================
>
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