-Caveat Lector- from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/01/nation_loeb060601.htm Click Here: <A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/01/nation_loeb060601.htm";> Washingtonpost.com: Live Online</A> ----- Vernon Loeb o Online Column: Intelligencia o Back Channels o National Security Discussion Transcripts o Full Coverage: National Security o Live Online Transcripts o Subscribe to washingtonpost.com e-mail newsletters o James Bamford's book Body of Secrets is available on borders.com Back Channels With Vernon Loeb Washington Post National Security Reporter andJames Bamford Author of Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency Wednesday, June 6, 2001; 1 p.m. EDT Washington Post reporter Vernon Loeb covers national security issues. His newspaper column, Back Channels, is also carried by this Web site. In his latest articles and columns, Loeb writes about the verdict in the embassy bombings trial and its influence on the U.S. strategy with respect to Osama bin Laden; President Bush's call for a comprehensive view of the nation's intelligence capabilities; and former FBI agent Robert Hanssen's indictment on charges of spying for Moscow. On June 6 his guest will be James Bamford, a former investigative producer for ABC's World News Tonight with Peter Jennings and author of two comprehensive examinations of the National Security Agency (NSA): Body of Secrets and The Puzzle Palace. Nicknamed Crypto City, the NSA is responsible for eavesdropping on the world and breaking virtually impossible foreign code and cipher systems. In Body of Secrets, Bamford explores the NSA's secret role in the major events of the Cold War, its current struggle to eavesdrop on ever advancing forms of communications, and how it is attempting to find new ways to break the code and cipher systems of the future. Submit your questions and comments for James Bamford and Vernon Loeb before or during the discussion. The transcript follows. Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To read the most recent responses, click "Get New Responses" or select "Automatically Update Page." washingtonpost.com: Welcome to our monthly discussion of national security issues with Post reporter Vernon Loeb and his guest James Bamford, author of Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency and The Puzzle Palace. When you submit your questions, please specify which participant you would like to answer or if you'd like to hear from both of them. James Bamford: Thanks for having me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Herndon, va: As I was reading "The Puzzle Palace," the 1st thought that came to me was "Boy, is he going to be in trouble!" Did the NSA attempt any legal action against you after the book came out? As I remember it did everything possible to stop publication. James Bamford: When The Puzzle Palace came out NSA and the Reagan Justice Department did threaten to prosecute me. I had received documents relating to NSA's illegal eavesdropping from the Justice Department under the Freedom of Information Act and then NSA said they reclassified them as top secret and demanded their return. When I refused, they threatened prosecution. But the Executive Order on secrecy said once a document is declassified it can't be reclassified so they had no grounds. Reagan changed the Executive Order but they could not apply it to me because it would have been ex post facto. This time, however, NSA was much more receptive. The actually had a book signing for me at their headquarters. Quite a change. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vernon Loeb: I actually covered Jim's book signing at the NSA and was amazed to see that hundreds of employees actually attended the event. I wasn't sure whether anyone from the agency would feel comfortable being seen attending a Bamford book signing. But indeed they did. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sacramento, CA: How closely and effectively does the NSA work with the FBI counterintelligence units? How effective is the NSA against Chinese intelligence operations in the US which employ large number of "students and scholars" to acquire bits and pieces of information from many, diffuse sources? If the old style cryptologists are a dying breed at the NSA and are being replaced by high tech wizards, as I gathered from what you wrote in your book, who is left to piece together a case against old style Chinese espionage? James Bamford: NSA works closely with the FBI counterintelligence units. There have been a number of NSA people in the past who have been convicted of espionage. I do not know how effective they are against Chinese intel. ops in the U.S. They do have authorization under the Foreign Intel. Surv. Act to conduct eavesdropping within the U.S. on spies. The new cryptologists are quite capable to tackle the new Chinese spies, from what I understand. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alexandria, VA: How big is NSA's Intelligence Analyst corps compared with the group of people doing foreign language interpretation? Does the former exist to serve the latter, or do the language people produce reports with some degree of autonomy? James Bamford: To a large degree the group is the same. The intelligence analysts are also language experts and vice versa. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Washington, DC: For Mr. Bamford: How come you never mentioned in your book's bio that you were a code clerk for the NSA when you were in the Army? James Bamford: I never served in the Army. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vernon Loeb: While Jim's answering questions, let me just say one other thing about his two NSA books: He makes it look easy. But believe me, an extraordinary amount of work goes into reporting on the NSA, because it's so difficult getting even the most basic information from the agency. Jim's ingenuity as a reporter is absolutely stunning. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lanham, MD: What controls are in place to prevent the NSA, FBI, etc. from spying on US citizens illegally? I know that the NSA "claims" not to spy on Americans (at least not directly) but what measures are actually in place to oversee compliance? James Bamford: The controls are U.S. laws and oversight by the House and Senate intelligence committees. These came about because of many NSA abuses during the 1950s to the mid 1970s. From what I have seen, NSA has not gone back to its bad old ways. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Washington, D.C.: How private are my telephone communications? If, as an ordinary citizen, I'm talking on a mobile or cordless phone in the nation's capital, is my conversation being intercepted by the NSA or any other U.S. government agency? Are foreign governments likely to be eavesdropping or vacuuming it up? James Bamford: If you are just having a normal conversation it is not being intercepted. But if you begin talking to the Russian embassy or start talking to someone suspected of espionage or terrorism it very well may be listened to and recorded. Other governments, such as Russia, eavesdrop on a great deal of American communications from its giant listening post in Cuba. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Groton, CT: Mr. Bamford: Can you say a little about how you gathered material for your book and any resistance you encountered? Is there anything in particular that you hadn't been able to get but wished you had? James Bamford: The material for Body of Secrets came from interviews with current and former employees and senior officials, including the director, Lt.Gen. Michael Hayden. I also obtained thousands of pages of documents from NSA via the Freedom of Information Act. Other documents came from NSA's library in its National Cryptologic Museum and from various presidential libraries. I did encounter a great deal of resistance at first but the agency eventually agreed to help me. There are many, many things I wish I could have obtained but didn't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vernon Loeb: A questioner from Virginia has asked whether the NSA will be closing other overseas bases, after announcing last week the closure of its Bad Aibling Station in Germany. I suspect the agency will close as many overseas bases as it can, as long as the work can be consolidated elsewhere. One of the things NSA is trying to do now is find large sums of money to invest in new technologies. The gravy days of the Cold War are over. And if money running obsolete Cold War bases overseas can be saved and redirected, expect the agency to do it. It does not now have the money it needs to invest in an array of new technologies necessary to remain relevant in the digital age. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Washington, DC: Mr. Bamford: What's been the reception to your book at the agency and within the intel community in general? James Bamford: The book has been very well received within NSA and the intelligence community. NSA had a book signing for me at its museum and it lasted for about four hours. Others in the intelligence community thought it was very useful for a book to come out to explain what the agency is all about. After all, it is only the second book written about the agency in 50 years. The first way my earlier book, The Puzzle Palace, published in 1982. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Washington, DC: Is it really necessary for the American people to know a lot about the NSA? James Bamford: The American people pay for NSA and, in the past, have been illegally spied on by NSA so yes, it is necessary for American people to know at least some details about this agency -- the largest spy agency in the world. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ VA: Is there a Britishechelon, Frenchechelon, Chinesechelon, Germanecholon, etc? James Bamford: Yes, the UK, France, China, and Germany all have NSA-type organizations that conduct worldwide eavesdropping and code breaking and much of their operations are directed at easy to listen to commercial communications. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vernon Loeb: Interestingly enough, the latest European Parliament report on Echelon acknowledges that European nations, like France and Germany, and, of course, Russia, all have SIGINT agencies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Baltimore MD: Is the perception of NSA in Congress improving? I remember hearing a Congressman not too long ago state that NSA was nothing more than a "work-projects program for Glen Burnie"... James Bamford: In answer to an earlier question on Operation Northwoods, this was a plan by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 1962 to trick the American public into thinking that Cuba was attacking the US. This would then give the JCS an excuse have a massive invasion of Cuba. As part of Operation Northwoods, people would be shot on America streets, bombs exploded, and boat loads of refugees sunk on the high seas -- all of it blamed on Cuba. The plan was approved by the JCS but later shot down by Defense Secretary Robert McNamara. The perception of NSA is improving in Congress now. They like with NSA director Michael Hayden is doing to change the culture and the way the agency works. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chevy Chase, MD: Vernon: I realize this is off the subject of today's session, but what is your take on the dispatching of George Tenet to the Middle East? Is there anything, beyond the recent flare up in the conflict, that has caused the administration to reverse its position on involvement in the negotiations? James Bamford: I think the Bush administration is sending Tenet to the Middle East for the same reason the Clinton administration did: the personal relationships he has developed over the past several years with the Palestinians are useful at a time like this. All things being equal, Bush clearly would rather not get involved. But once his administration made the decision to re-engage at a critical moment, it turned to a proven asset--Tenet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Arlington VA: What do you think of the popular interest in "Echelon"? James Bamford: Echelon is NSA's world wide eavesdropping operation -- run in conjunction with similar organizations in England, Canada, Australia and New Zealand -- to eavesdrop on commercial communications around the world. It has attracted a great deal of interest because of its Orwellian reach. I don't think it eavesdrops on as many people as some thing but I think it is useful for the public to be concerned about such a system. So public interest is probably a good thing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vernon Loeb: Sorry, that last answer about Tenet actually came from me. I hit the wrong button, which made it appear as one of Jim's responses. Just because I write about technology doesn't mean I'm very good with computers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ D.C.: Great book, Mr. Bamford. Are you planning on writing more about the NSA or another agency like the NIMA or NRO or other less-know agency? James Bamford: Thanks. Right now I am considering what I will write about next but I doubt it will be another book about NSA, NIMA, or NRO. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vernon Loeb: Jim's lst answer on Echelon, I think, is a great illustration of his objectivity with regard to the NSA. He's neither an NSA basher nor an NSA apologist. And there aren't that many people out there writing about NSA you can say that about. The agency, for some reason, tends to engender very strong reactions in people. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andover, New York: Dear Jim, You may remember me from when we both lived on boats at the GangPlank Marina. You were with ABC News, and I was a private consultant to the USG on national security issues. I am now an attorney practicing in rural Western ("upstate") New York. There is an article on page 3 of today's Post entitled "Espionage Trial Begins for Retired Army Colonel." The article makes clear that this trial is taking place in a courtroom open to the public. Do you know of any spy trial conducted in this country closed to the public? That would of course appear to violate the Sixth Amendment right to a public trial. I ask this question because I currently represent a defendant being sued by his previous employer who claims he has learned "confidences and secrets" that must not be divulged. The company lawyers have just about convinced the judge to try him in secret "just like in spy trials." I don't know of any secret spy trials, and wonder if you do. The judge is going to rule this Friday. I await your response. James Bamford: Most all past spy trial have been held in public but the government has a right to keep some information secret. However, many spy trial have been held in secret by the military. Court martials allow for secrecy and for that reason the Army and Navy and Air Force have held trials largely in secret when espionage was involved. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vernon Loeb: Maybe Jim should consider writing yet another book about Robert Hanssen, the accused FBI super spy, since he knew Hanssen pretty well. I think there are already four Hanssen books and a screenplay by Norman Mailer in the works. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Washington, DC: Once the NSA closes its listening station in Germany will it be set up somewhere else? Does this have anything to do with the Echelon system? James Bamford: Much of what was at its major listening post in Germany will probably be transferred to the agency's Menwith Hill Station in England. It is part of a worldwide consolidation and also may reflect some worries over the European reaction to Echelon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ USA: Mr. Bamford: Your book mentioned the UKUSA agreement. Is the document still classified since 1947? James Bamford: Virtually everything related to the UKUSA agreement is still classified, including the actual agreement. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Germany: Hello. Suppose you were writing about the German SIGINT or the French SIGINT, will you be allowed to write such a book or will be banned? James Bamford: It is an interesting question. I have seen a number of articles on the subject written in Germany and France but no books. I do not know what those governments would do. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bronx, NY: There have been quite a few discussions concerning the need for NSA to catch up to the rest of the digital information era we are in, just how much catching up does NSA need? Will it ever catch up? James Bamford: NSA is in a great race not only to stay current with the rest of the technological and digital world but to get ahead. That is the debate that is going on now. Whether it will succeed probably won't be known for a few years. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Los Angeles, CA: In light of the FBI's most recent blunders, I'm wondering who has oversight or jurisdiction over the NSA? They seem to be able to monitor everything we do but what system is in place for them to be monitored? James Bamford: Ironically, many of the secrets allegedly given away by Robert Hanssen were NSA's secrets. So there is a problem of too much access to secrets within the FBI. The Congress is the principal oversight body but it also has to oversee all the other intelligence agencies so some wonder if it is up to the task. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vernon Loeb: With more and more information moving digitally, there is certainly going to be a role for signals intelligence in the future. But I think the nature of SIGINT will change dramatically. The vacuum cleaner approach of old will give way to a much more targeted focus on particular communications. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dallas, Texas: : The Bamford book is junk. The first 3/4 of it is just a re-hash of things already covered by Richelson, Burrows, Sontag, Kessler, et.al. He even lifts complete sections of his previous book into this one; they were wrong in the first book and they are still wrong in this book. Comments? James Bamford: Actually, there is virtually no overlap between the two books as every book review has said. In fact, the reviews have been universally good and all have complemented me on the great deal of new information I have managed to obtain for the book. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Albany, NY: After having seen what they do during investigations on the receiving end, it is hard to believe there is any oversight of the actions by counterintelligence personnel. After accounting for seat-of-the-pants, sloppy assumptions, the possibility that persons making fundamental decisions work for the other side strongly suggests an open ended problem. Is there any regular review to check for incompetent/corrupted work? Who guards the guards? James Bamford: Counterintelligence has been a major problem. There have been dozens of spies caught over the years but many of them have operated for years or, in some cases, decades before being detected. To correct this the Clinton Administration set up a sort of super-Counterintelligence body to oversee the problem. It may or may not correct some of the problems. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vernon Loeb: Jim is perfectly capable of defending himself, but to call his book junk is simply over the top. Ask any of the authors that the questioner mentioned about their opinion of Bamford, and I don't think any of them would have anything but praise. The fact is, Bamford blazed a trail for all of them with The Puzzle Palace. I mean, he wrote that book when most people--even most savvy insiders--had no idea NSA even existed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Reston, VA: Mr. Bamford, First, I have both of your books, and have recommended them to friends. On the line of recommended books, have you read Secrets and Lies by Bruce Schneier or Database Nation by Simson Garfinkel? Also, do you read slashdot.org, kuro5hin.org or cryptome.org? What is your favorite website? James Bamford: I greatly enjoyed Bruce Schneier's book and am planning on reading the Garfinkel book. I really like Cryptome.org. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Virginia: Hello. For both of you. The Bad Aibling station in Germany will be closed. Will other overseas stations (England, China, Australia) will be closed in the future? Are they needed since U.S. based stations can handled it? James Bamford: Other stations will probably be closed also and consolidated in England, Australia, the U.S. and other locations. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ James Bamford: Terrific questions. Thank you very much. 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