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David Schippers Interview, 111201
Government
Source: Alex Jones Radio Show
Published: 11/13/01 Author: David Schippers, Alex Jones
David Schippers Interview
Nov. 12, 2001 (10:30 PM EST)
Alex Jones Radio Show
(David Schippers, attorney for the House Judiciary Committee, handled
the impeachment of William Jefferson Clinton. He worked closely with
Henry Hyde during the process. In this interview he discusses
evidence received from Jayna Davis, Oklahoma City bombing
investigator, which shows that Iraqi men were involved in the bombing.
David Schippers represents several FBI agents who state that they are
not being permitted to arrest certain terrorists. The agents and
Jayna Davis had knowledge of the 9/11 attacks on Manhattan, prior to
the attack, and attempted to provide that information to Attorney
General John Ashcroft, but were unable to get past staffers and
Ashcroft did not return calls to Schippers. Currently, David
Schippers wants to make this information available to members of
Congress. However, the Justice Dept. would not permit them to testify
about what they know.
The FBI agents are also not permitted to testify in response to
subpoena in the Terry Nichols trial. (See: Justice Department won't
let agent testify)
In this interview, David Schippers also discusses the new anti-terror
legislation and NATO AWACs. )
_____________________________________
AJ: Thanks for joining us today. We talked about a lot of this stuff
up one side and down the other - but a lot of listeners never heard
it. Go back briefly into Oklahoma City for us, please.
DS: Okay, after I got back from Washington. I was back maybe a few
months, about a year, I got a letter from this woman, Jayna Davis,
down in Oklahoma City. And as I did with all letters that I received,
I answered her. And thanked her for taking the time to write, and so
on, so forth. She wrote back and told me that she had some
information concerning the Oklahoma City bombing that indicated that
there was a Middle Eastern connection. And, of course, my first
reaction was the same reaction that anyone would have under those
circumstances - here we come with another nut that's got a conspiracy
theory, you know. So I did, however, write to her and she asked if
she could send me some stuff and she did - sent me a few documents
and a general overall view of what she had. My interest was not only
piqued; I was astounded at what she had. She told me that she had a
awful lot more but she wouldn't put it in the mail, she wouldn't put
it in an envelope. She and her husband flew up from Oklahoma City to
Chicago and brought all the material. When I read it, when I looked
at what she had, frankly, I completely changed my mind. I realized
this was a woman - she had been an investigator before at the time of
the bombing in 1995, and she had material there - pictures, she had
affidavits, she had all kinds of things that showed....in my opinion
beyond a reasonable doubt that there was Middle Eastern backing
behind McVeigh.
AJ: Like John Doe #2, Al Hussani, later working, confirmed, at the
Boston airport, the day of the hijacking, in food catering, to the
aircraft..
DS: Right.
AJ: They drive those right up to the engines, don't they?
DS: They go right on the airplane. The worst part about it was..when
she showed me all this stuff, I said, Holy Toledo! Did you turn this
stuff over to the authorities?
She said, Well, I tried to. I tried to turn it over to the FBI. I
went up there, no strings attached and just said to the FBI, look I
have all this information, you are welcome to it. I would like to
turn it over to you. You are going to find all kinds of leads in
there, people that were involved, etc., etc. The agent to whom she
offered the material went back into his office, then came out and
said we don't want it. And the FBI totally refused to take anything
she had. There are affidavits that they did end up with that she
furnished to the FBI. Those affidavits have never surfaced; they have
never surfaced. They were affidavits of people who said they were
interviewed by the FBI agents and the FBI agents tried to get them to
say that the second person they saw was Nichols. And they said, no it
is not Nichols, definitely not, it was a Middle Eastern-type
individual. Once again, those documents have never been turned over
(to the defense).
AJ: And later it came out that FBI had actually arrested a bunch of
Middle Eastern men with blue jogging suits and bomb-making materials
and all the stuff that matched. So what did the Feds do? They ran and
grabbed all the surveillance cameras off the nearby buildings....
DS: Right.
AJ: Even took the camera mounts down off the wall so people wouldn't
say if there was a camera, isn't there a tape?
DS: That's right. That's exactly right and that's exactly what
happened. And to this day, they refuse to acknowledge that was any
Middle Eastern connection. Let's think of why. Why would the Clinton
Administration not want to have that come out? It was April of 1995,
Mr. Clinton's approval ratings were way down.
AJ: 32%
DS: Yea, and the Republicans had just clobbered him in the 1994
election and for the first time had taken both Houses of Congress.
AJ: And they were about to repeal the '94 gun grabbing act.
DS: Right, and of course, remember how it went down. Oh, this was a
right-wing militia guy. He was.. these crazy right-wingers again are
at it. The Rush Limbaughs, the Quinns, the people of the country who
are the conservative talk show hosts are really, although they didn't
directly cause this, they are responsible for it. He had everything
he wanted. He could attack the Republican Congress, he could attack
the talk show hosts, and, probably, had he worked it out right, he
could have been able to grab all the guns, too, to take them away
from these, quote, right-wing militia groups. There's the reason.
AJ: Now we are about to see a replay of that with all the anthrax.
We'll cover that later with you, Mr. Schippers. Fast forwarding to
earlier this year, you get all these affidavits and documents, Jayna
Davis, the investigative reporter, flies up with her husband - you're
looking at this - you didn't just sit there, you flew off to
Washington.
DS: I didn't fly off to Washington, I started making calls. By the
way, in or about the same time, remember, I represent an awful lot of
federal agents in the Chicago area. I'm talking about street agents,
guys who go out there and do the job. And I was hearing some very
disturbing things from these agents - that there was material being
covered up, that they were being denied any attempt, or any effort,
to interdict terrorist activities, any where in the country.
Especially, to grab their money - the thing that they are doing now.
So I began making calls - and very frankly, the information that I
was getting was that bin Laden and the terrorists had decided on
three moves against the United States. First to take down an American
commercial airliner, that was Flight 800; second, to bomb a federal
facility in the middle west or in the heartland of America, as they
put it...
AJ: In fact, about a day after you came on, five weeks ago, Bin Laden
came out and said attack the heartland.
DS: Yea, hit the heartland - and the third one - and the one that I
was screaming about, was that the third attack, from everything we
were getting, and this was not coming from a swami or coming from
some kind of crystal ball, this was coming from intelligence all over
the world - the third one was going to be a financial structure in
lower Manhattan. The original word that we got, was that they planned
on a atomic-type device but obviously that didn't work. But I would
call these people (in Washington) and say look, I don't care if you
talk to me but would you please listen to these people, listen to
what's being said, listen and look at the evidence and make up your
own mind, but for God's sake, look at it.
AJ: Now later, unless I got my memory wrong, you did go to
Washington, didn't you?
DS: No, I was supposed to go to Washington with one of my witnesses.
And everything fell apart. He was forbidden, this was an
individual......
AJ: Oh, that's when they called you and said no we don't want to
meet. That's right.
DS: Yea, they called and said he's not allowed to talk. He's not
permitted to talk to anybody in the United States Congress.
AJ: Now, David Schippers, let's fast forward for a second because now
it's in the BBC, their top report last Thursday -- I actually
interviewed on Friday the BBC reporter. Now a bunch of FBI agents and
it says Defense Intelligence Agents aren't just leaking unclassified
stuff and warnings, they are actually releasing classified stuff to
the Brits, so they can get it published..
DS: Right.
AJ: Actual documents that Bush said leave the Bin Laden family alone
and pulled them off the case.
DS: Well, I'll tell you, I don't know if it was Bush, but I'll tell
you the bureaucracy up there, the Washington bureaucracy and the
Dept. of Justice and the FBI, is probably the worst enemy the United
States has today because they just refuse to permit any evidence or
any information to get beyond them.
AJ: Yea, but we tripled their funding in '96 and the incentive is to
allow more terrorism.
DS: Well, the whole idea is to keep their jobs. And if they come out
and say we blew it in Oklahoma City, we blew it with Flight 800, we
blew it when we had a chance to get bin Laden and we weren't
interested, people are going to start saying, well gee what are we
paying you guys for? And that, I think, is one of the great problems
we've got.
AJ: But David, if I'm cutting your lawn - and instead of cutting your
lawn, I beat your car up with a baseball bat, you're not going to
come give me more money the next week for it.
DS: That's right, I'm not going to ask you ..... hey, you did such a
great job of beating my car last week, I want to give you some more
money to cut the lawn this week and, by the way, I'm parking my new
car in the driveway. That's the sense of what you are doing here and
it's terrible, it's an unfortunate thing. And I'll tell you
something, I am thoroughly convinced with the information I have, and
as you say, now people are coming forward. There are people in Naval
Intelligence that know what happened in Oklahoma City, there are
people inside the FBI who know what happened in Oklahoma City, and,
believe me, street agents are all decent and honorable men and women.
They don't like what they have had to do and I think they are about
ready to blow the lid off.
AJ: Well, let's go further than that because, look, I've got the
Insight magazine, that's the Washington Times, highly respected right
here, and they have analyzed this USA Patriot Act. This is Adolf
Hitler's dream. Secret warrantless searches inside your house, take
whatever they want and not even tell you they were there, you are not
allowed to tell people when you were searched if you find out, and
the list goes on and on. And Ron Paul said they already had the tools
that they needed, like you said, their hands weren't tie, they just
weren't using the powers that they had.
DS: They weren't listening to anybody, they all the powers, all the
laws that they ever needed. We didn't need new laws. That's the
answer whenever anything happens, let's pass a few more laws and make
it a little tougher to live like an American.
AJ: Well Ron Paul is here saying that they weren't allowed to read
it. I saw Congressman Matsui, Democrat from California, on C-Span
this weekend, saying they passed this and no one even read it, he
said even the chairmen of the committees didn't read it.
DS: Well that's just great. That harkens back to the days of FDR.
AJ: Have you read this thing?
DS: No. No, to be honest with you, I'm a little afraid to read it
because when I hear, and I do know they can do warrantless searches
and all they - I saw what they did with the drug laws. All you had to
do was say we are going after drugs and every American said well
that's OK, you can search a car, that's fine, they won't search my
car. So, all of a sudden, they come out and search your car. Then you
find out what they really were after...
AJ: And then it was asset forfeiture seizure, where the old lady's
got two grand in her purse - and it's gone.
DS: That's right. They just take it. Even when I was out in
Washington, I remember that Henry Hyde was extremely disturbed about
that because, when he found out that they just take the money and
then you've got to prove that it was honest money, to get it back,
and that's virtually impossible.
AJ: No drugs are found, no arrests are made..
DS: No, nothing, nothing - they just find some individual coming off
an airplane, maybe he looks prosperous or something and they come up
to him and say, how much money have you got on you? Well, I've got
$20,000. Fine, give it to us, we think it's from drugs. They haven't
a thing to do with it.
AJ: Have you read Section 802, the definition of terrorism?
DS: No. What is it? Anything that we decide is...
AJ: Oh, I don't want to sit here and quote it and not have it in
front of me. It says... Here it is: It says Section 802 defines
domestic terrorism as engaging in activity that involves acts that
endangers human life, that violates the laws of the United States, or
any State and appear to be - now you just heard it: activity that
involves acts dangerous to human life and violates the laws of the
United States, or any State.
DS: Yea, there you go.
AJ: Jaywalking is ....
DS: That's anything. That's anything. Anything they want it to be.
AJ: Does that scare you as a former prosecutor?
DS: It terrifies me. You know, I'll tell you, when I was first made
the Chief of Organized Crime here in Chicago, we were just beginning
our fight against the mob, I remember the newspapers interviewed me
and they said to me, what tools do you want to do your job? And I
said, I don't think we need anymore tools, the laws are there. And
they said, wouldn't more laws like wiretapping and stuff like that
make your job easier? And I said, sure, but when my job gets easy,
the country's in trouble. And that's the answer.
AJ: Yea,I mean Adolf Hitler's job was real easy.
DS: Uh huh.
AJ: David Schippers, I really appreciate you joining us tonight.
Break
AJ: Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. We are talking to David
Schippers, former top impeachment lawyer for the House Judiciary
Committee, also one of the guys who helped to bring down some of the
big crime families there in Chicago, about government prior knowledge
of the (terrorist) attacks - now headlines BBC, Wall Street Journal.
And a bunch of the FBI agents are now leaking even classified
information to the BBC, as well as Defense Intelligence, and they say
more attacks are coming. But nothing is being done. Mr. Schippers, I
heard you on another radio program last week, and I heard even
yourself say that this is a takeover and you mentioned the NATO
aircraft in our skies. Bush is now discussing a continental security
parameter with United Nations troops, it's been on Nightline. This is
the stuff that we heard people talk about years ago and it seems to
be unfolding now.
DS: Yea. It terrifies me to be very honest with you. I just, when I
heard that NATO planes are flying cover in the United States, that's
plain nuts. I mean, we are the ones that can protect others. We don't
need NATO to cover us.
AJ: Well people always say, hey, we've got troops in Germany, they
can be here. Germany was a captured, divided country with 20 million
dead. You don't just- it's not like we are Germany, folks.
DS: That's right. We are not an occupied nation. We are not Bosnia.
We are not Kosovo. The one thing that we have always been able to do
is to take care of ourselves. And, I might add, most of the world at
times.
AJ: Well you see the message they are sending though: foreign troops
equal safety, troops in the airport equal safety. When hiring some
local detectives to guard the airport makes a lot more sense than
some 22-year old guy who is in the Guard. I'm not saying they are
stupid but I wouldn't know how to run security.
DS: Nope, neither would I. That's true.
AJ: But you see the message they are sending.
DS: Look, I lived through the Second World War, I was a kid, but I
was old enough to know what was going on. We were at war, total war.
There were attempts to get into the country, there were attempts to
sabotage. We had the rule Loose Lips Sink Ships, and things like
that. But we did not, we did not take away all the civil liberties of
the American people. War is war, but these laws will never go away.
AJ: Well David, that's what Ron Paul and many other Congressmen are
saying. They're saying this law does nothing to stop terrorism, most
of the big sections of it and that it takes all our rights. Do you
know that they just put up a face scanning camera down the street
from my house?
DS: Lovely.
AJ: You know what those are, don't you?
DS: Yea, I know. They can watch every move you make.
AJ: And they know who you are.
DS: And they want to be able to track your cell phone; that's why I
won't use my cell phone. They want to be able to .. You know, what if
they get a wiretap? Suppose this roving wiretap - let's say that the
guy who lives across the street from me is active in some terrorist
cell. Or at least they think he is active in some terrorist cell. He
comes over to my house and asks to use the phone and I let him use
the phone. They put a loop on that call, they put a loop on my phone,
I don't know about it and I don't know when, if ever, they will take
it off.
AJ: And you come home one day and they are sneaking around in your
house in black ski masks and you think they are criminals and shoot
them and David Schippers goes to prison for shooting a federal
officer.
DS: Well, they would make me a terrorist.
AJ: David Schippers was working with them.
DS: Yea, that's right, he was secretly working with the terrorists
and that's why he shot our operatives. Just the fact that we were in
the basement rummaging through his things is OK, that's OK - you have
to fight terrorism like you fight drugs and they are going to have
about as much success with the terrorism as they've had with the
drugs.
AJ: Yea, more cocaine and more heroin on the streets. David
Schippers - we will be back in one minute.
Break
AJ: Remember the old standard request? If you don't have anything to
hide, then you won't object to being searched? What about a twist on
that? If you haven't done anything wrong, then you won't object to
being tortured to prove it. We've got Alan Dersowitz, that slimeball.
DS: Oh, there's a real hero.
AJ: He is now on the news saying he wants national ID cards and
torture warrants for the American people. I mean this is getting
scary.
DS: I always thought he was a little around the bend. He just proved
it. That's total insanity. Torture warrants. Hey, think of all the
jobs we can have though with the people who make the racks and the
leg irons and those things. We can import some Chinese torture
artists and this country can really..... well, we'll get them, we'll
get them. Meanwhile, they'll blow up everything in sight and all the
American people will be sitting behind bars with their arms and legs
broken. That's sweet.
AJ: Well, just so long as they get the guns, that's all that matters.
DS: Oh yea, they've got to get the guns off the street. The UN
doesn't like guns because when people are armed, they tend to fight
back.. If we ever let that happen- ever let that happen, that they
take our guns, then I'm out of here.
AJ: We are talking to David Schippers, the former House Judiciary
Committee attorney. Sir, did you know that we have Czechoslovakian
troops massing at Fort Hood, just outside of Austin?
DS: No, I did not know that.
AJ: I can send you news articles. I know that sounds ridiculous, but
it's true.
DS: What are they? UN troops?
AJ: Yea.
DS: Well, they are here to keep the peace. Right?
AJ: Yea.
DS: And they'll do it anyway they want. I think this whole thing is
ridiculous, it's absolutely ridiculous. We fought two of the
strongest nations on the face of the earth in the Second World War
and the only foreign troops we had in the United States during that
entire war were the prisoners of war from Germany. Do we need
Czechoslovakia to come over here and protect us?
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