-Caveat Lector-
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:26:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Party of Citizens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Abdul Majid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [LIFE-GAZETTE] Re: [islamicmessage] The Trinity refuted by
Christ himself! (fwd)
On Fri, 25 Jan 2002, Abdul Majid wrote:
> Agreed. All good, virtue, knowledge and mercy decend from God alone.
Conversely all sins are sins against God. A man said to be "purged of
vanity and wickedness" is manifesting the qualities of God to an
exceptional degree. If that manifestation is perfect, then the
manifestation is perfectly "created in God's image and
likeness" (Genesis). Does Islamic history report any imperfections of
Jesus?
We
> human beings don't have the means or capacity to imagine the depth and
> breadth of His attributes. We only know what He reveals or want us to know.
In the New Testament we read that Paradise is even beyond our power to
imagine, for those who love God. That reinforces your point that there is
much about God and His ways which is beyond our powers of comprehension.
> How far can human go in sharing God's nature? Depends on God Himself.
How true. It depends on God Himself and how much He reveals. The Holy
Trinity can only be understood by us in part. This would take an
understanding which surpasses earthly human understanding like the
understanding of Paradise as above.
In addition to such enigmas there are paradoxes in philosophy like "God's
paradox". Can God make a stone too big for Him to lift? We cannot "wrap
our minds" around such a problem. Also we cannot wrap our minds around the
material in-this-world perfection of God who is spirit. Jesus Christ said,
"God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in
truth".
But we have the story of Eden to tell us that God can make material
perfection, whether one accepts Eden as literal fact or truthful allegory.
Could God make material perfection in the form and expression of a man in
this imperfect, material world? Certainly. Did He in fact choose to do so
in Jesus Christ? All any of us can do is read the Gospel Story and we can
decide for ourselves.
This
> is very important since no matter how much human become godly, they cannot
> co-equal God. The equation is simple:
>
> "One is Creator the other is His creation."
We agree that there are degrees of perfection and the attainment of virtue
among humankind. As humans "become godly", created becomes LIKE Creator.
If created were to be just one small step away from being exactly like the
Creator, what would we then say about the next step? One could say that it
is impossible. But then "To God all things are possible". If that step
were taken, by the power of God, would we have two Perfect Beings or
One? That is what we cannot wrap our minds around. It is too great for
human comprehension.
But IMO even some more mundane matters of quantum physics are beyond
comprehension. Yes quantum physicists can replicate that experiment in
which the same particle is said to be in two places at once. And they can
mathematize it. But how can we "wrap our minds" around it? How can x be
not-x? How can something, the same thing, be both here and there?
Nevertheless, if x can be not-x in physics, the x/not-x enigma of the Holy
Trinity is surely not beyond the Almighty. "To God all things are
possible".
But Muslims have presented more very difficult problems to us. I attended
the International Council of Christian Churches Conference at UBC from
August 8-17, 1990. I met a doctor of theology from Pakistan who gave me
two of them: (1) If Christians say Jesus Christ is God and yet has a
mother, ie the Virgin Mary, how do you resolve the enigma that you are
saying God has a mother? (2) If Christians say Jesus Christ died on the
cross, how do you resolve the enigma that you are saying God died?
POC
> From: Party of Citizens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Abdul Majid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [LIFE-GAZETTE] Re: [islamicmessage] The Trinity refuted by
> Christ himself! (fwd)
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:40:46 -0800 (PST)
>
> All that is good, virtuous, true comes from God and only from God. It is
> his and only His and He allows us to share in His blessings to a
> degree. As we share His blessings we share His nature. Some greater than
> others. How far can a human go in sharing God's nature, ie to what extent
> can a human be Godly?
> POC
>
> On Fri, 25 Jan 2002, Abdul Majid wrote:
>
> > If I say "I am one with Mohammed (peace be upon him)" it means: I agree
> with
> > him but:
> >
> > -I am still me.
> > -He is still he.
> > -That doesn't make me equal to him.
> > -That doesn't make him equal to me.
> > -He is the source and I am the destination
> > etc etc
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Party of Citizens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: [LIFE-GAZETTE] Re: [islamicmessage] The Trinity refuted by
> Christ
> > himself! (fwd)
> > Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:05:17 -0800 (PST)
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:56:51 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Party of Citizens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: [LIFE-GAZETTE] Re: [islamicmessage] The Trinity refuted by
> Christ
> > himself!
> >
> > If you say, "I am one with Mohammed on this issue" what does that
> > mean? Answer it and you will find the solution to the riddle.
> > POC
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, aaboelela wrote:
> >
> > > =============================================
> > >
> > > for islamic info: http://www.islamicmessage.net
> > >
> > > =============================================
> > >
> > > -- Sent by (mamajid@ hotmail.com):
> > >
> > >
> > > The Trinity refuted by Christ himself!
> > > -----------------------------------------------------
> > > "And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of
> > > Resurrection): 'O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ! Did you say
> > > unto men: Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?' He
> > > will say: 'Glory be to you! It was not for me to say that which I had
> > > no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would have surely
> > > known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what
> > > is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is
> > > hidden and unseen.'
> > > 'Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me
> > > to say: "Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness
> > > over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You
> > > were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'.
> > > [Al-Qur'an, 5: 116-117]
> > >
> > >
> > > In the 'Gospel according to Mark', chapter 12, verses 28-34, we are
> > > able to read one of the statements, made by Christ himself, which
> > > categorically denies the doctrine of the trinity:
> > > "Then one of the lawyers, who had been listening to these discussions
> > > and noted how well he answered, came forward and asked him, 'Which
> > > commandment is the first of all?'
> > >
> > > Jesus answered, 'The first is, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is
> > > the only Lord; love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all
> > > your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength."
> > >
> > > The second is this: "Love your neighbour as yourself."
> > >
> > > 'Well said, Master. Your are right in saying that God is one and
> > > beside him there is no other. And to love him with all your heart,
> > > all your understanding, and all your strength, and to love your
> > > neighbour as yourself - that is far more than any burnt offerings.'
> > > When Jesus saw how sensibly he answered, he said to him: 'You are not
> > > far from the Kingdom of God'."
> > >
> > > Here we have a statement by Jesus (on him be peace) declaring "God to
> > > be One". Not two; not three; but ONE! This would have been THE best
> > > situation to put forth the trinity if one exists. But Jesus(pbuh)
> > > didn't!
> > >
> > > Then there is the lawyer; a man well acquainted with 'divine law',
> > > that is the laws revealed to the Prophets (on them be peace). This
> > > lawyer, with his knowledge of the Scriptures, was already aware of
> > > the truth, that "there is only One God". The reply given by Jesus (on
> > > him be peace) to his question, was the already confirmed revelation
> > > inspired to the Prophet Moses (on him be peace). [Deuteronomy 6,
> > > verses 4-5]
> > >
> > > This message to mankind resounds throughout the Scriptures: "You have
> > > had sure proof that the Lord is God; there is no other". [Deuteronomy
> > > 4, verse 35]
> > >
> > > "This day, then, be sure and take to heart that the Lord is God in
> > > heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." [Deuteronomy
> > > 4, verse 39]
> > >
> > > "I am the Lord, there is no other; there is no god beside me... so
> > > that men from the rising and setting sun may know that there is none
> > > but I: I am the Lord, there is no other." [Book of Isaiah 45, verses
> > > 5-6]
> > >
> > > All the above quotations proclaim in plain, simple language that the
> > > people of the east and the west are required to believe that: "There
> > > is no ilaah (god) worthy of worship except Allah"
> > >
> > > "O people of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your
> > > religion, nor say of Allah aught except the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa
> > > (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of
> > > Allah and His Word ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam
> > > and a spirit (Ruuh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His
> > > Messengers. Say not: 'Three (trinity)!' Cease! (It is) better for
> > > you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilaah (God), Glory be to Him (Far
> > > Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the
> > > heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as
> > > a Disposer of affairs." [Al-Qur'an, 4:171]
> > >
> > > "Say 'O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have
> > > nothing (as regards Guidance) till you act according to the Tauraat,
> > > the Injeel, and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord
> > > (the Qur'an).' Verily, that which has been sent down to you from your
> > > Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and
> > > disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve." [Al-
> > > Qur'an, 5:68]
> > >
> > > =============================================
> > >
> > > for islamic info: http://www.islamicmessage.net
> > >
> > > =============================================
> >
> > What kind of city with surroundings would one expect of a "faith-based
> > public works" project with the objective of designing and constructing a
> > "culture of life"? Would a George Bush "culture of life" be the same as a
> > Vatican "culture of life"?
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What kind of city with surroundings would one expect of a "faith-based public works"
project with the objective of designing and constructing a "culture of life"? Would a
George Bush "culture of life" be the same as a Vatican "culture of life"?
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