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[Don S. Brown]

Hola,

In response to June:
<BTW, I am DEFINITELY no thumper and I am the last to push the Bible as inerring historical fact...but you, OTOH, are only presenting personal opinion that isn't supported by recent archeological discoveries and modern biblical-era scholarship...>

I would beg to differ that I am representing personal opinion.  I cite the work of Prof. Israel Finkelstein director of he Sonia and Marco Institute of Archeology at Tel Aviv University and Prof. Neil Silberman director of historical interpretation for the Ename Center for public Archeology and Heritage Presentation in Belgium and also a contributing editor of Archeology Magazine.  I previously gave a starter book list (which I will add at the end) to get anyone searching for an understanding of early church history a source of reference works.  It is by no means a complete list.
I have gone out of my way to try and not be opinionated and to try to find facts that adhere to my belief's (or lack of) as proofs of said beliefs.  My conclusions are based on the evidences for and against historical accuracy of the bible.  Ultimately any knowledge is questionable and a reasonable person with an open mind can still only be so certain.
As to recent archeological discoveries and biblical-era scholarship that refutes what I think I know, well lay it on me.  The problem with most biblical scholarship is that it  is done by believers.  It is forbidden by many biblical study organizations to refute the findings of the bible.  I am bound by no such shackles.  Take for instance the interpretation of the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Qumran documents as they are known.  Access to them was strictly controlled by a cabal of scholars with agenda's and it took a concentrated effort to get them released for study by independent researches.  I thank Dr. Eisenman  and others for their efforts there.
When you talk of biblical era scholars I need remind you that the church controlled knowledge and information and used it to wield power amongst the mostly illiterate.  I am speaking of biblical scholarship from 350 to the mid 1800's.  It was heresy to question the dogma and text's with severe punishment for those with open minds.
I have reviewed the available works of many, many church fathers from the first century onward and they are rife with false history, propagation of known lies and blatant forged documents and letters to support their positions.
The early Christian church was indeed a forgery mill.  Letters from Jesus to neighboring kings, letters from Pontius Pilate, etc.  In fact the sheer ridiculousness of some of these forgeries were an embarrassment to the church and it removed many previously canonized documents and letters.

<And don't forget the Assyrian myths that were also borrowed...
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I agree that the majority of the Bible is based on myths from earlier 'pagan' civilizations...but that doesn't mean that the myths don't contain an element of truth... ;-) >

Exactly!  That is what I am saying, mythos borrowed from mythos.  Conquering tribes and nations incorporating the useful ideas and beliefs of the conquered and demonizing that which they did not like. The majority of original Saints of the Catholic church were Mithraic figures.  They were, with sometimes subtle name changes, transformed into Christian concept figures to attract the illiterate Pagan's.  That is the reason for the stained glass depiction of biblical scenes in churches.  It was to give the Pagan's a visual stimulus to support their dogma.  Of course there is some truths to the myths of old.  The problem with the ancient ones are that the real events are so lost in time that unless new archeological finds of writings more ancient than the Sumerian  and Babylonian tablets we probably will never be able to correlate them with available texts.  So, let's say, "here are some old writings".  "Here is a system of beliefs from an ancient people"  Not take them at face value and start a cult of Gilgamesh or whatever.

<For example, here in the U.S. we have a secular myth regarding George Washington chopping down a cherry tree as a boy and throwing a silver dollar across the Delaware River; while these myths are not objectively 'true', they DO contain subjective truths...and the fact that they are myths doesn't change the fact that George Washington WAS an actual person who DID have a significant impact on our history and culture...>

Well, I am sure that the myths of Zeus had some basis in truths.  I am sure they had a significant affect on the Greek people.  I do not think that is proof of his existence.
In the future say there was a technological breakdown and long after people learned to read again.  James Bond might seem like a real person that did wondrous things.  However, they would be hard pressed to find writing of contemporaries of Bond, James Bond.
You see, with Christianity that is one of the main stumbling blocks to asserting his historocity.  No one in that era ever wrote about him.  They wrote about the Christian movement which was a Jewish phenomenon based on their helenization and were a savior cult.  None of his family, friends or supposed apostles ever continued his mission and wrote about it.  The 4 canonical gospels were written in the 2nd century and were a method of teaching the lessons of the Tora in a non threatening  (to the Romans) way.They were written in Greek and given the names of 4 "Apostles".  The 12 apostles were supposedly illiterate fishermen, not Greek scholars. Many different groups in the Diaspora had spiritual needs but Judaism was verboten.  A very good book on this is liberating the gospels by Bishop Shelby Spong.
So if I have expressed an opinion, it is because it is an educated one.  I find that most believers do not research beyond their holy text's and when they do it is with the pre supposed assumptions that their findings will be in line with their beliefs.  For instance the people pushing creationism as science in schools ( the institute for creation research).  It is forbidden in their charter for anything other than a biblical creation story to be the results of any studies they undertake!  How open minded is that?
Judaism, Christianity and Islam force one to put aside their common sense and thinking ability to accept what is written.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.  I have searched for these proofs for many years and have not found them.
Thank You,
db

a list of books:
Liberating the Gospels by Shelby Spong
The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finklestein and Asher Silberman
The Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S
Forgery in Christianity by Joseph Wheless
Who wrote the Bible by Richard Elliot Friedman
History of the Christian Religion to the year 200 by Charles B. Waite
James the Brother of Jesus by Robert Eisenman
The Nag Hamadi Library by James M. Robinson
The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty
The Diegesis by Robert Taylor




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