-Caveat Lector- "I want to believe" -Fox Mulder, X Files
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > Your argument basically begs the question over and over, a logical fallacy. No I am not begging the question. I am mostly functioning as a critic of both science and religion in these postings and I don't think it is my responsibility to come up with a positive alternative any more than an art critic has such a responsibility. However, I'll go a little further since you have phrased your reply so well. > You still have not proven your own conclusion using your own logical tools > which you use to tear down the theory of evolution: that there was a > creation. Use your logic to prove your point, now: there is creation by a > sentient being. I challenge you. Darwinism starts with some observations of the fossil record and such. As long as it sticks rigorously to scientific empiricism (observation) I have no objection. However, Darwinism has turned into DOGMA of the religion of SCIENTISM and its "believers" distort observation to fit religious belief. That is bad epistemology. Since they are usually blind as well to what they are doing it is also bad psychoepistemology. I have explained why mutation and selection fail as mechanisms to explain the diversity of species today. They fail because we do have good command of these mechanisms in the lab but cannot get the results out of them which would explain the creation of radically diverse life forms. But there is a lab mechanism which does give us radically diverse life forms. That is genetic engineering which is "intelligent design". Modern genetic engineers reasonably expect to someday be able to create life forms as diverse as the species we see today by such "intelligent design". Given that, if we were to travel to a distant planet in another galaxy and find diverse life forms, we would reasonably wonder if we had encountered the Planet of Dr. Morro. Since selection and mutation have been proven scientifically to be incapable of accounting for species diversity, they would be ruled out as plausible mechanisms. So we would start to look for Dr. Morro, the "Great Father" as Marlon Brando was called in the movie. > I hear a lot of logic used against evolution, but I hear very little in > support of it, and the logic I have heard in support of it comes down to > this point: "How could it not be intelligent design, given all this?" And > that is awe and bewilderment as a conclusion, and it is poetic, but it is > not logic, nor it is a basis for a theorem. It is as you have phrased it...a question. It is also a reasonable hypothesis given the lab results which support it and the lab results which rule out its alternatives, mutation and selection. It is much more logical than persisting in the pushing of mutation and selection at this stage. Yes it is poetic...and mysterious and a source of awe and wonder. It is a basis for a theorem...the Theorem of Intelligent Design. > We are often stricken in awe at the vast wonder of the universe, but it does > not prove that a being created it, much as we want to believe it. My advice is to push the rational-empirical methods of science to their limit. That is good epistemology. Then struggle with the challenge of ontology and metaphysics as Asimov did in the quote of his I presented. Flip into psychoepistemology now. Notice how he felt a need to account for his position in this "thought experiment" as ultimate cosmologist. His religion of Scientism told him he should be able to do so by using scientific method. But he had to admit that he only had recourse to "faith" and "belief", that is faith and belief in Scientism. Scientism left him with what? An omniscient scientist. Hmmmm...sounds supsiciously like those cosmologists of OT and NT. And would an omniscient scientist not be omnipotent? > I am not saying that someone or thing did not create it, but I want to be > shown, using these same tools of logic, exactly how and why someone or thing > did create all of this. And religous texts do NOT count. Remember, you are > defending the point using logic, not faith. Show me a system of logic which does not have premises. In religion the important premises are called dogmas or articles of faith. Why do you insist that religious texts do not count? Are you only willing to accept people like Hawking into the profession of Cosmology and not the Cosmologists of ancient times? That is no more rational than saying modern philosophers are the real thing but Plato was not. > It would be even more amazing if it could be proven empirically that it were > done in seven days. But that is perhaps asking to much - not the creation, > as that would be fantastic in and of itself, but the timeline. A day can be any length of time depending on how fast the planet is rotating. > "I want to believe you." But I can't, not yet. You have only proven your > ability to poke tiny holes in the ideas which disagree with yours, not in > supporting your own ideas. The problems with mutation and selection in defending darwinism dogmas are not tiny holes. You can drive a truck through them. Intelligent design is plausible because it DOES work in the lab, contrary to these mechanisms. Hawking et al put forward "parallel universes" as a plausible cosmology..the science world doesn't laugh and you can read that argument on the Oxford web site. For some reason there are scientists who do laugh when Biblical cosmologists put forward the prospect that a meta-universe exists beyond this one...a meta-universe with intelligent designs and purposes. I guess the prophets should have gone to Oxford. Can't say I ever did, myself...but I did go to Cambridge where I punted on the River Cam. Do I get credit for that? Say...wasn't Fox Mulder a Cambridge man? POC (Party of Cosmologists) > - jt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Party of Citizens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Ivan Semeniuk wrote: > > > > > I don't know who put me on this listserver but please take me off. > > > > Of course I will stop emailing you with this information as truth in > > science makes you uncomfortable. I hope the management of Discovery and > > CTV will sooner or later get things straight and that they will give my > > present complaint consideration. Meanwhile the public will have to learn > > its epistemology and psychoepistemology online and not from the Priesthood > > of Discovery TV. However, I think you should examine the following > > doctrinal statement of the late, great Pope Asimov, one of the leaders of > > your faith: > > > > "I have FAITH myself. I BELIEVE that the universe is comprehensible within > > the bounds of natural law and that the human brain can discover those > > natural laws and comprehend the universe. I BELIEVE nothing beyond those > > natural laws is needed. I HAVE NOT EVIDENCE FOR THIS. It is simply what I > > have FAITH in and what I believe." (Counting the Eons, 1983, p.10). > > > > A forthright statement on your faith and religion and the place > > of "discovery" in it. Note too, "I have not evidence for this". This piece > > of catechism (defined by Webster's as "religious questions and answers") > > admits its own limitation. IT ADMITS THAT IT IS NOT SCIENTIFIC in the > > sense that it can PROVE its assertion. Don't you see the problem for > > scientific discovery in asserting that the know-er of the universe must > > become the known? The epistemologist must become part of the epistemology, > > otherwise the ultimate scientist referred to by Pope Asimov could not > > "comprehend the universe". > > > > But in the daily practice of scientific discovery, your Discovery Religion > > TV has its problems more in psychoepistemology, ie "how and why we know > > what we know". You are blinded by the dogmas of Scientism and engage in > > what the psychologist calls "denial" and "escapism". You escape into the > > fantasy and delusion that you have scientific proof where you do not. > > And you pass this false belief, which is both bad science and bad > > religion, onto the public. Two cases in point: (1) darwinian dogmas; (2) > > einsteinian dogmas. > > > > I suggest that you come right out and Beatify these men so that the public > > will not be further deceived by what you are broadcasting. Darwinian > > dogma's undoing is its own realization that mutation is a sine qua non for > > it to "work". Take as an example the fact that some fish have stronger > > fins than others and can use them to crawl across mud flats. Darwinianism > > asserts that such appendages must "evolve" into limbs so that land animals > > can emerge from sea animals. But you can apply mutagenic agents all you > > want to fish in the lab. You will get a vast number of highly distorted > > and maladaptive creatures (creatures with malformed bones in huge numbers, > > malformations which strangely do not litter the fossil record as > > darwinism predicts they should). But you will not get legs. Some novices > > confuse selection with mutation. Yes, natural selection can be taken into > > the lab with ease and with great success. Animal husbandry has worked with > > artificial selection for thousands of years. It would give you bigger fish > > fins or stronger fish fins. But selection can only work on what exists. It > > cannot create a new form, eg a leg on a fish. That requires mutation. And > > mutation has been proven in the lab to be a failure as a mechanism in > > darwinism to explain what we see in nature. > > > > But what does come out of the lab as a plausible mechanism for what we we > > in the fossil record is GENETIC ENGINEERING, ie "intelligent design". Here > > we have structure and form being altered beyond what selection could give, > > with PURPOSE in mind. Hypocrisy is a standard feature of false religion > > and hypocritically, the scientists who would see species diversity like > > that of Earth in Andromeda somewhere would theorize that a master genetic > > engineer at least COULD be responsible, yet they will not admit that > > possibility here. Rank hypocrisy! > > > > Narrow minded bigots in Scientism lack in self-awareness (see > > psychoepistemology, above). They lack a dedication to TRUTH, and true > > science requires that dedication as much as true religion. Having St. > > Darwin exposed as so flawed is one reality you will have to face up to, > > sooner or later. Having St. Einstein similarly exposed is another. Light > > speed is NOT constant. And which light speed would you use in E=mc2? And > > where is the EMPIRICAL (ie scientific) proof that this equation is valid? > > Obviously big explosions yield big values. It doesn't take St. Einstein to > > tell us that. But when you decide to get honest with the Discovery and CTV > > public I suggest you give us data from the nuclear reactors. They must > > keep exact records of beginning mass and end mass and power generated in > > between. Present the FACTS, the TRUTH, the VALID SCIENCE on the matter and > > I will gladly accept the correction. That is what TRUE science and TRUE > > religion are about. > > > > POC > > > > Reference: "Einstein's Theory of Relativity Must Be Rewritten" by Jonathan > > Leake. The Sunday Times, London, 9-9-1. > > > > > __________________________________________ > > > Ivan Semeniuk > > > Producer/Columnist, Discovery Channel Canada > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > phone: 416-332-4404 fax: 416-332-4409 > > > > > > 9 Channel Nine Crt. > > > Toronto, Ontario > > > CANADA M1S 4B5 > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Party of Citizens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 5:39 PM > > > To: saba > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Double Whammy Against Darwinian Dogmas > > > > > > > > > This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > > > Service. 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