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THINGS ARE GONNA SLIDE! OUT OF THE SHADOWS BY NICK REDFERN Nick Redfern interviews David Clarke, co-author with Andy Roberts of the newly released book: Out of the Shadows, published in the UK by Piatkus. The book is as fascinating as it is controversial and deals with their findings on the history of UFOs and the British Government. 1. First, Dave, can you relate what prompted you to write Out of the Shadows and give a brief description of what the book is about? The book was written in an attempt to go 'back to basics' with government UFO research in the UK. There has been very little original research done in that area so we decided to start with 1940 and work forwards, approaching the subject as would a historian by only using contemporary accounts, both official and media, and original interviews. The result is a fascinating insight into what the UK government's real involvement with UFOs has been and how that connects with the Cold War and beyond. 2. During the course of your research, what was the earliest evidence you found demonstrating British Government interest in UFOs? Well there was government interest in the wave of 'phantom airship' sightings in 1909 and 1913, when Winston Churchill was questioned in Parliament about a sighting over a dockyard in Kent, but these UFOs were thought to be German Zeppelin airships involved in spying missions. The earliest real interest comes from 1941, when radar stations on the south coast of England picked up a wave of strange objects travelling across the Channel from the direction of France. As a German invasion was expected, Fighter Command assumed these were towed gliders and fighters were scrambled to take a look. When they reached the scene there was nothing to be found. This happened night after night for several months, and a secret investigation was launched, at the height of WW2, involving Dr R.V. Jones who was then head of Scientific Intelligence at the Air Ministry. We got this story directly from a member of Sir Robert Watson-Watt's radar team who was at Bawdsey in 1938. He provided us with two hefty files relating to the investigation. We think this was earliest case of what would later be called a radar UFO incident. 3. For years there have been rumours of Air Ministry investigations of Foo Fighters during the Second World War. To what extent have you been able to validate those rumours and what new material have you uncovered? In the book we exclusively reveal there was a study of 'foo fighters' but it was not under that name. WWII aerial phenomena was called 'the thing' or 'the light' by UK aircrews. The study consisted of numerous sighting reports, including a UFO several hundred feet long seen in two different locations. It concluded that as these things weren't causing any problems they should be ignored. The book also includes direct testimony from aircrew, gleaned from our personal study of the foo-fighter phenomenon during the 1980s. 4. Your book contains information on the British role in the study of the ghost-rocket phenomena of 1946. What conclusions did the Government reach about this, and how deeply were the Secret Services involved? British involvement in the ghost-rocket saga has never been seriously looked at until we chanced upon several hitherto unseen files at the PRO. These detail how much of the Air Ministry were convinced that the 'rockets' were a real and genuine threat, so much so that two 'secret agents' from MI 10 were despatched to Sweden to investigate. The conclusion reached by the government, somewhat reluctantly, but based on evidence, was that the phenomena had been some form of hysteria based on misperception of natural objects. But the story of the internal politics of this and how the conclusions were reached is fascinating. 5. We know the US military investigations of UFOs really began, on a large scale, at least, following the Kenneth Arnold encounter of June 24, 1947. How does that compare, time-wise, in the UK? In the book we reveal that six months before Kenneth Arnold's sighting the RAF were involved in an operation to intercept a UFO over the East Coast of England. This was called 'Operation Charlie' and involved an object tracked by radar over East Anglia, which travelled at speeds in excess of those that the fastest planes could achieve. Mosquitoes were scrambled on several occasions and one managed to lock onto the UFO with its airborne radar. The phrase 'Flying Saucer' had not yet been coined so the RAF called this UFO a 'ghost plane'. We found a radar operator who was involved in the most dramatic incident, and the pilot of the Mosquito who attempted to intercept the UFO. We don't know what happened to the 'secret' report on the operation, but information on the sightings was shared with the Americans. Captain Ed Ruppelt wrote that the reports of the English 'ghost planes' featured in the legendary 'Estimate of the Situation', which concluded that flying saucers were extraterrestrial. The evidence we have found gives credence to the claim that the Estimate was a real document, and not a myth. 6. What were the circumstances that led to your discovery of the DSI/JTIC document and the existence of the Flying Saucer Working Party. We discovered the existence of the Working Party as a result of a lot of hard work over the period 1998-2000 in the Public Record Office. In 1999 we found an obscure reference to a 'DSI/JTIC Report' produced by a working party and that was like a red rag to a bull. Soon after that we found the minutes of the Directorate of Scientific Intelligence from 1950-51 that discuss the creation of the committee and the report it produced. From that point onwards we piled pressure on the MoD for the release of the Report No 7. At first they claimed it did not exist, then they agreed to an archive review that failed to locate the file. They said it was 'missing, presumed destroyed.' Then early in 2001 we were told it had been found and we were sent a copy many months in advance of its release at the PRO. We went public with our findings in October 2001 and launched the flyingsaucery.com website so the documents were available to UFO researchers in advance of our book. It's a little amusing now to see other researchers claiming the credit for the discovery of these documents, particularly as they pointedly fail to give credit to those whose hard work brought them to light in the first place. But we guess that imitation is a form of flattery! 7. Who would you say were the key figures in the British Government's UFO studies of the 1950s and what have you found out about what they really believed? Our research focussed upon Henry Tizard and R.V. Jones as the key personalities in terms of scientific intelligence involvement in early UFO studies. Tizard played a major role in the development of radar. Jones' involvement runs deep, from his role in the study of the 'foo fighters' and ghost rockets before the age of the flying saucer, to his term as Director of Scientific Intelligence in 1952-53, dates which coincided with the most intense UFO flap of the Cold War. Jones was also a close friend of Dr 'Bob' Robertson, the CIA scientist who convened the infamous Robertson Committee, which debunked UFOs early in 1953. This illustrates the high-level exchanges of UFO intelligence that were characteristic of other US-UK joint working during the Cold War. At this stage, there was clearly as much of a difference of opinion about the nature of UFOs within the MOD as there was among the public. RV Jones remained ultra-sceptical throughout the UFO era as a result of his experiences with the ghost rockets, whilst Tizard was more open-minded. Lord Cherwell, Churchill's senior-scientist, and Robert Cockburn, the Air Ministry's chief scientist, were equally as sceptical as Jones was. So the battle between 'believers' and 'sceptics' has a very long history! 8. Who else (in terms of military/RAF/MOD people) did you interview for the book and how did you manage to persuade them to speak to you? We traced many high-ranking MOD personnel, aircrew and intelligence people during the research for the book. These included members of the Deputy Directorate of Intelligence, or D.D.I. (Tech), that became the Air Ministry branch responsible for UFO investigations following the 1952 flap. Probably the most important of all were the DDI (Tech) director at that time, Air Commodore Peter Cribb, and the leader of the Flying Saucer Working Party, Wing Commander Myles Formby. We also managed to track down members of DI 55 who inherited DDI (Tech)'s role from 1967 onwards. Virtually everyone we contacted, with few exceptions, were willing to discuss the subject as long as we did not stray into other areas that were covered by the OSA. To them UFOs were a nuisance; a subject they were forced to look into as a result of questions in Parliament and newspaper sensationalism. They were all sceptical, but open-minded too, with the bottom line being that witness testimony did not constitute proof in the absence of physical evidence. None of them were aware of any 'secret' evidence confirming the existence of 'nuts and bolts' craft that had been concealed from the public. If we had approached them as UFOlogists looking for evidence to confirm preconceived ideas, we probably have been turned away. We tried a different approach, that of professional historians, who simply wished to document an aspect of Cold War history that had previously been ignored. 9. During the course of tracking down retired military people, Air Ministry personnel, finding new files etc, did you come across any data or rumours concerning UFO crashes in the UK? There is one, completely new crash but no retrieval story in the book, which comes from Northumbria. We don't want to reveal too much about it save to say it involves a civilian witness, the Northumbrian police and the MoD! 10. The book contains some pretty amazing information about the existence of a secret 'Gentleman's Club' of British aristocracy and Royalty who believed in the reality of UFOs but who were very careful not to say so in public. What can you tell us about this? It's a little known fact that following WWII many members of the aristocracy, royalty and politicians were extremely interested in flying saucers. The most high profile of these was Lord Louis Mountbatten and we tell the full story of his involvement in the book. There was also the former RAF Air Marshal and Royal Equerry Sir Peter Horsley, who we interviewed in 2000, the last time he spoke about this subject before his death last year. He told us that, acting under orders from Prince Philip, UFO witnesses were regularly taken to the Palace to speak with Horsley who sent his reports to his employer. There were many others including Victor Goddard and Hugh Dowding, all of whom helped promote the UFO subject in the UK. 11. What do you make of Nick Pope's statements about the MOD and UFOs? We've always been highly critical of Nick's statements. Unfortunately, for someone in his position at the MoD he should know considerably more about the subject than he has demonstrated. His books have betrayed a complete lack of knowledge about the real UFO work undertaken within the government and he has yet to introduce any genuinely new information about the MoD into the UFO field. 12. Is the book largely historical or does it address latter day UFO encounters and the official attitudes to, and studies of, those encounters? The book begins in WW2 with the 'foo fighter' sightings and ends in the 1990s, so it roughly covers the UFO phenomenon in the context of the Cold War. There is one chapter devoted to the Rendlesham Forest case. We were the first researchers to obtain a copy of the MoD's complete file on the incident early last year, and we launched a successful appeal which resulted in the release of two of the five documents the MoD wanted to with held. The book tells the story of the Rendlesham case based upon facts rather than speculation, and we have gone to some lengths to give credit to all those who have played a central role, both sceptics and believers. 13. Based on all your research, what are your conclusions about the role played by the British Government and the military in the UFO subject since the 1940s? And more importantly, what do you think their conclusions are? It's obvious that the British Government have done a great deal of research into UFOs but have to a large extent been embarrassed by their findings. This is what we think lies behind any 'cover-up' which may or may not exist. It seems obvious from the documentary evidence, they have found 'no defence significance' in UFO encounters, yet on the other hand they are mystified by many of them and unsure what to do with the 'evidence' they have gathered. Our conclusions are that the subject remains baffling to them because it represents a largely social phenomenon rather than a physical one. 14. Has there been a reaction from within the corridors of power to your book? I wondered what the military or the MoD thought about it? We've had a very positive response from the senior MoD and RAF people who agreed to be interviewed about their sightings and their role in official studies. We feel the book is the nearest there will ever be to an authoritative history of the MoD's involvement in UFO investigation. We have been involved in the filming of a TV documentary based on the book, to be shown in June this year. During the production the MoD agreed to give us access to Metropole Building in London, where DDI (Tech)'s UFO branch was based during the 1950s. It was quite an experience to visit the infamous Room 801! 15. To what extent (if at all) have your views on the UFO subject and on official interest in the subject changed since researching and writing the book? We were surprised just how interested the government have been over the years and just how much new material we were able to uncover both from official sources and in the interviews we conducted. One case in the book, the RAF Little Rissington incident, has certainly given both of us cause to think deeply about the origin of some of these aerial phenomena, although we have seen nothing which suggest an extraterrestrial origin. 16. Are you working on any new projects right now? As usual we are working on several projects at once. Obviously we are pursuing the many leads we have into official involvement with UFOs but besides that we are working on a book that looks at the cultural side of UFOs. We don't want to say too much as our ideas are often eagerly picked over by others! Andy and yourself have, of course, just signed a book deal and are working on a book about the Berwyn Mountain UFO Crash, which will be as interesting as it is controversial! Previous Things Are Gonna Slide! 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