I never said I proved the slide is fake, Travis. In fact, I've said several times that I've all done is prove that it could be fake. I said it in the mailing list and in the original posts on my site.
*Please* try to read what you're criticizing/arguing/responding to. I know it can be hard, or boring, or frustrating, but it's essential to a dialogue that you respond to what the other person/side/position said and not confabulate something (as is human nature) or worse yet, build a strawman. Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is exactly > the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants. So categorical, monolithic and single minded! One might even say "overly so" lol On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <[email protected]> wrote: > Mike, > You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a dollar > bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant navel > gazing exercise. > > These disclosures only serve to further confirm opsec procedures long > recommended and employed. This slide is an advertisement for Tor (which > some hold to be a government honeypot, I do not.) > > Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is exactly > the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants. > > -Travis > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Michael Best <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may leap to >> defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time to look >> at the data/posts as they would otherwise. >> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be >>>> more >>>> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having >>>> leaked >>>> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely >>>> candidate. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, you did list a number of possibilities. It sometimes seems as >>> though the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses before >>> replying to them. >>> >>> Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia >>>> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on their >>>> site >>>> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd been >>>> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish paranoia, >>>> no? >>>> >>> >>> Agreed. It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome, >>> possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around the >>> time this all began. >>> >>> -S >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <[email protected] >>>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374 >>>> > >>>> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group >>>> > >>>> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new >>>> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online >>>> > communities.[6] >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote: >>>> > > > >>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he >>>> didn't get >>>> > > >>>> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real, it >>>> > follows >>>> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got >>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake. >>>> > > > Is this plausible? >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time. >>>> > > >>>> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to >>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)? >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to. >>>> > > >>>> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski < >>>> [email protected]> >>>> > > wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he >>>> didn't get >>>> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got >>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Is this plausible? >>>> > > > >>>> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing >>>> to >>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)? >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote: >>>> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the >>>> > materials >>>> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be expected >>>> to >>>> > > > remember >>>> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID >>>> this >>>> > one as >>>> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other >>>> > documents >>>> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing >>>> them, >>>> > > > contrary >>>> > > > > to their apparent belief. >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski < >>>> > [email protected]> >>>> > > > > wrote: >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote: >>>> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific >>>> charges that >>>> > > > require >>>> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial >>>> is >>>> > set, >>>> > > > > > because >>>> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public >>>> opinion, >>>> > > > where a >>>> > > > > > lot >>>> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an >>>> investigation >>>> > or >>>> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be >>>> little to >>>> > > > gain at >>>> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there >>>> > would be >>>> > > > few >>>> > > > > > > people to believe it, >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong >>>> argument - >>>> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden >>>> himself* has >>>> > > > accused >>>> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says >>>> he >>>> > did >>>> > > > not >>>> > > > > > > provide*. >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit >>>> > Snowden. >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide? >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get >>>> unnoticed. >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub > <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | > Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn> >
