Carl Karsten wrote: > Paul McNett wrote: >> Carl Karsten wrote: >>>> -> /home/pmcnett/dabo >>>> top level dabo directory, the one with AUTHORS and README and (most >>>> importantly) the one with the dabo subdirectory (the top-level of the >>>> importable dabo stuff). >>> So you have /home/pmcnett/dabo/dabo right? >> Yes. What was the problem again? > > "dabo dir" is not definitive - it does not identify a dir. makes for crappy > docs.
I understand, but don't have any answers, as you've probably guessed. What is missing from the picture is a graphical installer, that guides the user through the process of getting dabo "installed", which is basically: 1) download 2) put in a smart location based on whether only this user needs access to it (home dir) or all users need access to it (/usr/local/lib; c:\Program Files). 3) add the dabo.pth to python's site-packages >>> That bothers me. so does dabo/dabo/dabo, which is what I had for a while, >>> then >>> I switched to dabo/trunk/dabo/dabo, which I don't like either. >> >> I actually have: >> >> ~/dabo-full/ >> ~/dabo-full/branches >> ~/dabo-full/tags >> ~/dabo-full/trunk >> >> and a symlink: >> ln -s ~/dabo-full/trunk dabo >> > > Is that your final answer? The outer dabo directory contains stuff that isn't needed for actually using dabo. Mostly, it is where the setup.py lives. When you run 'python setup.py install', you end up with the inner dabo directory underneath your python's site-packages. This works great, and when you want to update you just download again and re-run 'python setup.py install' and everything is hunky-dory. But for developers, that dance gets inconvenient, as we want to update at just about every single revision, and sometimes the needs are more complex because we also want to do things like swap in Carl's branch, or test-run an actual tagged release. So, developers really should come up with their own source code management that works for them. In addition, sometimes when working with users we say "please update from the latest subversion" which can be pretty cryptic, I imagine, from their point of view, but that statement assumes that they are set up with developer-style source code management, and developers in the heat of the moment forget that this isn't the case. So, I agree that we need some docs. It is just that the dabo/dabo thing doesn't seem to me to be the best place to focus. The outer dabo is where the setup.py lives; the inner dabo is the dabo library. >> Why are you bothered? The outer Dabo can be named whatever you want, so >> change it! > > That's what I am trying to do, but can't figure out what to change it to. > >> cd ~ >> svn co http://svn.dabodev.com/trunk Dabo-Outer >> > > I'm not going to change it to Dabo-Outer. :) > >> It is the interior 'dabo' that is important, because it is the package name. > > All the dirs are somewhat important. if they aren't, then delete them :) > > btw - the package name does not have to be the same as the dir name. but > making > it different would make things more confusing, which is not what I am trying > to do. Ok, you got me. How do you make a python package that isn't named by its directory name? Turned around, how would python find the package in 'import dabo' if the directory were named 'inner-dabo' instead? >>> -> /home/pmcnett/dabo >>> -> /home/pmcnett/daboide >>> -> /home/pmcnett/ss >>> >>> I think you are going to find your home to become cluttered. Even if works >>> for >>> you, I don't feel good recommending it. >> Um, yeah, my home directory is always cluttered. But every now and then >> I clean house. And I have yet to encounter an actual problem with a >> cluttered home directory. I never have trouble finding anything, which >> would seem to be the main thing to be concerned about. > > "be sure to clean house now and then." not sure that should be the official > policy :) I was trying to show how simple this can be, that overthinking things up front can cause lots of unjustified wheel-spinning. Why *not* tell people to put it in their home directory? When/if they come up with their own better place in the future, they have the power to make that happen. We aren't in charge of how people organize their filesystems, and it isn't up to us to dictate it. >>>> somewhere and importable from Python. It matters not where individuals >>>> choose to place their directories, >>> true, the docs should make that clear. >>> >>>> and I'd argue that part of the >>>> process of initiation into something like Dabo would be for people to >>>> come up with their own best practices themselves. It isn't rocket science. >>>> >>> So we should just replace the docs with "you figure it out." ? :) Actually... ;) While I wish that computer users today were comfortable with concepts like files and directories, especially since such concepts would seem to be building blocks for understanding things like python packages and working with dabo, I understand that some amount of guidance is going to be necessary. And if you can create a simple doc that we can point to instead of having to spin cycles giving the answer over and over again, I'm all for it! >> This is what the docs should say: >> >> 1) download dabo (use tarball, svn, whatever) >> 2) wherever you put it, your choice but write it down, because you need >> it in step 3. > > "write it down"! amusing, but no, the docs should not say that. or anything > like that. Not if they don't have to, and they don't. It does get around > the > funky dir name issue, but I am pretty sure coming up with better dir names is > a > better solution. Again with the funky dir name. You are referring to dabo/dabo? >> 3) put a dabo.pth file in your python site-packages directory[1] >> pointing to the location of your outer dabo directory. So, if you >> downloaded to ~/, this would be ~/dabo. > > wouldn't it be ~/dabo/dabo ? No, it would be ~/dabo. This tells python to look for packages in ~/dabo, and that is where the dabo package (the inner dabo) resides. Note that the ~/ shorthand *should not* be specified in the dabo.pth file, because that will resolve to different locations depending on logged-on user. >> >> [1] Windows: c:\python2x\lib\site-packages; Linux: >> /usr/lib/python2x/site-packages; Mac: >> /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/lib/python25.zip > > python25.zip ? Oops, cut/pasted from the wrong line: /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/lib/site-packages >>> The day that someone installs Dabo is not the day they should be figuring >>> this >>> kind of thing out. Good chance they are overwhelmed with things to figure >>> out, >>> and having a suggested path to follow really helps. Even for seasoned >>> python >>> programmers, the concept of some abstract classes may be new (I bet most >>> are use >>> to working with modules) and a seperate dir of tools (like ide) may also be >>> new. >>> It certainly isn't the normal set of things you get with anything I have >>> seen. >> I agree that there should be a simple set of instructions. > > Then stop with all that "you figure it out" style stuff :) > > > The easiest >> first step is what is described in README: > > geeze - more docs. I think this is the one project I have seen that has too > much docs. Agreed that we have too many places with things that can be considered "docs". >> python setup.py install >> >> Which works 90% of the time. So the first thing people get is a good > > > What are you basing 90% on? not that I am disagreeing, but I bet you have no > idea how many people try it and what the results are. No, but it follows what other python projects do, which I believe is the smart thing to do. Nothing dabo-specific about the install. > If it really is good enough, why are there all the other docs? Because to hack on dabo, you likely want a different setup. > > install of dabo, and then they can figure out how to get the .pth thing > > working when they get tired of installing dabo when they merely want an > > update. > > > > Why won't svn update work? It would, but it would be a dance: cd /tmp svn up dabo python dabo/setup.py install I think we need a black and white "here's how to install" for new users, which would be about 30 words total. Then we need a "further installation discussion" for hackers. Just my thoughts. Paul -- pkm ~ http://paulmcnett.com _______________________________________________ Post Messages to: [email protected] Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/dabo-users/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
