x-mailing-list: daf-disc...@shemayisrael.com
(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.)
_________________________________________________________________

                 THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST

      brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim
             Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
                      d...@dafyomi.co.il

 [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL]
________________________________________________________________

Beitzah 009: Ladders

aaron massry asked:
>>The gemara says that a ladder thats made for costruction is prohibited to
carry to another chicken coop on yom tov cause people will say that he is
moving it to construction purposes.If so every keli sheme'lachto lei'sur
should not be allowed to be handled even for pupose of permissible
purposes,for instance we know a hammer may be used to crack nuts on
shabbat.Shouldn't we be concerned that onlookers will assume your taking
the hammer to go build something?<<

The Kollel replied:
>>1) Your question may be answered if we look at the Mishnah Berurah in
Bi'ur Halachah OC 208:19, DH Sulam. The Bi'ur Halachah cites the Bi'ur
ha'Gra who sides with the Rashba, that the only prohibition is to transport
the ladder from one place to another, while merely moving the ladder around
in its place is permitted.
2) This means that according to the Rashba, the ladder is not actually
Muktzeh. Rather, the prohibition involved is that if one moves it around
between different chicken coops, this arouses a suspicion that one is going
to do construction work on the roof. In contrast, merely carrying it a
short distance is permitted.
3) This is why one may use the hammer to crack open nuts. The only activity
which is prohibited, according to the Rashba, is conspicuous transporting
of this noticeable ladder, while merely moving around a hammer does not
arouse suspicion that one is going to build with it; the only forbidden
activity is moving around a large object from one place ready for
construction to another similar place.<<

---
The Kollel adds:

Here are more differences between the ladder and the hammer:

1) a. Tosfos (Beitzah 9b, DH Mai) makes a distinction between different
kinds of ladders. Tosfos presents a contradiction to the Gemara in Beitzah
from the Gemara in Eruvin (77b) which states that it is permitted to move
ladders. He answers that the Sugya in Beitzah is referring to large
ladders, and that is why it is forbidden to carry them, while the Sugya in
Beitzah refers to small ladders which one may move around.

b. According to this, since a hammer is a small item, it is permitted to
move it around. The only item for which we are concerned that people will
say he is going to use for construction work is a large ladder, while
people will not find his activity with the small hammer so noticeable and
will not suspect him.

2) a. Another distinction can be seen in the Mishneh Berurah OC 308:80 in
the name of the Pri Megadim who writes that, according to the Rambam, one
may not move the ladder used for climbing on the roof, even "l'Tzorech Gufo
u'Mekomo" -- even if one is moving the ladder in order to use it, or if one
needs to use the place where the ladder is situated for some purpose.

b. What this means is that according to the Rambam, the ladder is not even
considered a "Kli she'Melachto l'Isur" -- a utensil which is generally used
for a forbidden Melachah. The Halachah for a Kli sh'Melachto l'Isur is that
one may move it l'Tzorech Gufo u'Mekomo; this indeed is the reason why one
may use the hammer to crack the nuts, because this is considered "l'Tzorech
Gufo" as the hammer is a Kli and one is now using it for a permitted
purpose.

c. The Magen Avraham OC 308:38 writes that the reason why the ladder is not
considered a Kli according to the Rambam is that it is similar to the door
of a house. A house is not a Kli, so its door is not a Kli, and similarly
the ladder is not a Kli.

d. According to the above, we may now explain that when a person uses a
hammer to crack nuts, he is in fact using a "Kli" for a permitted purpose.
Therefore, we are not worried that people will think he is using the hammer
for construction; people understand that a hammer does have permitted uses
as well. In contrast, when somebody moves around a ladder, it is not
considered a Kli and therefore we are more stringent with its Halachos and
take into account forbidden activities that onlookers may think he is
carrying out.

Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom

>>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<<
The *D*AFYOMI *A*DVANCEMENT *F*ORUM, brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf

Write to us at d...@dafyomi.co.il or visit us at http://www.dafyomi.co.il
Tel/Fax(US): 646-820-3315; Fax(Isr): (02) 591-6024; Tel(Isr): (02) 651-5004
_______________________________________________
Daf-discuss mailing list
Daf-discuss@shemayisrael.co.il
http://mail.shemayisrael.co.il/mailman/listinfo/daf-discuss_shemayisrael.co.il

Reply via email to