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Re: Kesuvos 030: Ha'Kol bi'Yedei Shamayim
Moshe Tarko asked:
>>(a) It seems to be the accepted understanding that Hashem does everything
in this world. You know: "Hakol b'eday Shamayim ..." People are part of
"everything" too. If Mr. X did something to you it's really from Hashem
etc. etc.
What is the pshat and idea behind this ma'amar? If any punishment is from
Hashem, why in Shmonah Esreh do we say Melech Ozer ... from who? Magen from
what?
(b) When Hashem gave David Hamelech (Shmuel II 24:14) a choice of
punishments, David chose to avoid anything coming from humans since it
would be "extra bad". Shouldn't all choices come out the same "quantity of
badness"?
(c) How could Shmuel Hanavi (Shmuel I 16:2) tell Hashem that he won't go
and do something because Shaul will kill him - when Hashem himself told him
to go. And Hashem says, okay don't tell Shaul why you're going?!
(d) And let's not forget the Rambam who in chap. 8 of Shemonah Perekim who
says that Hashem does NOT say which woman goes to which man even though the
accepted idea is 40 days before person is created (Sotah 2b)...what are the
different shitas?
(e) Also it seems from these and other statements in tanach that Hashem
does not know the future. Is there anything wrong with saying such a thing?
Why is that considered to be attributing a lack of knowledge to Hashem? If
the future does not exist then there is nothing to know! (I told this to
Rav Shlomo Fisher shlit'a and he was vehemently against the idea. Even
after I showed him an achron [the Shlah Ha'kodesh] who agrees with me, he
couldn't accept it.<<
The Kollel replied:
>>1) Rabbi Avraham, the son of the Vilna Gaon, explains the difference
between Melech Ozer and Magen as follows.
There are different ways that a person can have Bitachon in Hashem. One way
is to follow a plan of Hishtadlut and then trust that Hashem will help. A
person might go into business and have Bitachon that Hashem will help him.
This is Ozer :- Hashem helps a person who makes Hishtadlut and he succeeds.
A higher level is when it might be necessary to do something which seems to
be totally illogical, but there is no other choice because this is Kidush
Hashem. This was shown to us by Avraham Avinu who broke the idols and went
against the whole of the world, to proclaim to everyone that Hashem is the
Creator and the Master of the world. Because Avraham possessed such a high
madreiga of bitachon, Hashem in return protected him in a supernatural way.
This is why Hashem came to Avraham in a vision (Bereshit 15:1) and said to
him
" Do not fear Avraham, I am your Magen".
Since Avraham did such a great Kidush Hashem, without paying any attention
to physical risks, Hashem promised him that He would save him from all
dangers and that absolutely no harm would befall him.
Rav Avraham ben HaGra writes that this is the reason we say Magen Avraham
immediately after "uMagen", because Avraham Avinu reached the highest
possible level of Bitachon.
2) David HaMelech said that it is always better to fall into the Hands of
Hashem. Hashem is merciful amd does not always give a person as bad a
punishment as he deserves. Chazal tell us that in the end this is what
happened. Instead of suffering from 3 years of plague it became only 3
months, and then Hashem waived the punishment to 3 days and then to 36
hours. It is only Hashem who is so compassionate.
3) The Chovot Halevavot (Gate of Bitachon chapter 4) writes that we see
from the behavior of Shmuel, which was considered by Hashem as
praiseworthy, just how important it is that a person should be careful
about not putting himself in danger, and thereby watching over the most
important gift that he has received from Hashem; namely life itself.
Commiting suicide is the worst form of murder, because he has despised the
great gift of his own body, and abandons the task that Hashem gave him in
life.
Therefore, when Shmuel was hesitant about putting himself in danger, this
was a proof of how much he valued his own life. The fact that Hashem
suggested the 'trick' show that He was happy with Shmuel's care for himself
and his value of life.<<
Moshe Tarko asked:
>>Regarding the points you made:
1) Ozer might be answered that way but Moshia ... to save you... that is
not an appropriate wording for only Hashems actions and no other
'independent" entities. Certainly Magen is not an appropriate word for what
you are advocating: Magen means that someone or something is working
against you. Hashem will protect you from him/it. As you yourself said
there were risks [from who?] and Hashem protects you.
2) This says what I am advocating and is not an answer/counter. Man has
his own power ... G-d can only be merciful if you give him the reins. Do
you really want to say that? Also, we see that this is not the reality
either cause Hashem has saved people in many situations who were "in the
hands of man" [think Holocaust]. Also Etzem that Hashem asked shows that
there is a difference. BTW I thought that David Hamelech was going to be
self contradicting since he says not to trust man but if he chooses he will
be trusting/relying on man. That was a question/problem that I had. But
there seems to be a shita that I read about subsequently that asks my
question and answers that David Hamelech said "I don't know, You Hashem
choose for me".
3) What kind of danger can there be if Hashem runs everything, does
everything and he tells you to go do something that He says he wants you to
do for him? That could be called suicide? Aderabba, the trick shows that
"yes there is a problem. Shaul has independent ability of action and might
kill you. Let's get around that"!
The Meshech Chachma says that Hashem told Moshe to go down to save the Jews
and added "everyone who wanted to kill you in Mitzrayim is 'out of the
picture' now". The MC says: If Hashem would not of assured Moshe of that,
he would not have to listen to Hashem and endanger himself. He could get
killed even while working for the entity that does everything?!
The shlah hakodesh says that Hashem does not know the future or something
like that. I did not write down the Marei Makom, but I showed it to Rav
Fisher Shli"ta (we were standing in the back of the GR"A shul) who said
that he didn't care who said it ... he said that it was not correct. Come
to think of it I think Crescas says something like that too. A number of
years earlier I tried the same thing with Rav Fisher in his name which Rav
Fisher did not accept.<<
The Kollel replied:
>>Reb Moshe, thank you for your very interesting comments to which I will
attempt to reply.
1) The difference between "Magen" and "Moshi'a" is that Magen is a shield
which prevents any harm from touching the person protected by it, while
Moshi'a refers to someone who got into danger but was saved from the danger.
No one was able to do any harm to Avraham Avinu. It was as if he was
protected by a shield which prevented the arrows from even reaching him.
When Avraham shattered the idols, everyone in the world wanted to kill him
but nobody was able to touch him. Nimrod threw him into the furnace but
nothing happened to him because Hashem shielded him from the flames, rather
than simply pulling him out of the furnace.
2) Possibly the source you are referring to is Shoftim 10:15, "Bnei Yisrael
said to Hashem, 'We have sinned, do to us what is good in Your Eyes, but
please save us today.'"
3) There is really no difference between doing a Mitzvah of the Torah and
doing something which Hashem told you personally to do. If we believe in
the Torah, then performing any Mitzvah is as if we have been told
personally by Hashem to do the Mitzvah. Therefore, if one climbs up a high
ladder in order to send away the mother bird before taking the eggs, we
should have thought that no harm can come to him because he is doing a
Mitzvah. Nevertheless, the Gemara tells in Kidushin 39b tells us that if
the ladder is shaky, one should not take the risk of climbing up even
though one is doing a Mitzvah. This is because even though there is a
principle that people going to do a Mitzvah do not come to any harm, when
there is a significant danger involved we do not rely on this principle. We
are not allowed to rely on miracles. This is stated in the Gemara in
Shabbos 32a, that a person should never stand in a dangerous place and say
that a miracle will happen to him. Perhaps a miracle will not happen to
him, and even if a miracle does happen, he will have his merits reduced as
a result of this.
The Meshech Chochmah which you cite is a very good example of this. We see
from this that Hashem does not tell people to enter dangerous situations
and rely on a miracle to save them. Hashem does not tell people to rely on
a miracle.
I personally find it very hard to believe that the Shelah ha'Kodesh says
that Hashem does not know the future. We see all the time that Hashem told
the Tzadikim what is going to happen. He told Moshe Rabeinu that He is
going to take Bnei Yisrael out of Egypt and bring them to Eretz Yisrael.
Hashem told the Prophets what is going to happen in the future.
Reb Moshe, once again many thanks for your important ideas.<<
The Kollel adds:
>>I looked up the Shlah Hakadosh. There is a section where he discusses
what the Rambam writes at the end of chapter 5 of Hilchot Teshuvah about
the dilemma between the concept of free choice and between Hashem's
knowledge of the future, and the Ra'avad there.
This is in part 1 of the Shlah - Toldot Adam - Beit Habechirah. I did not
see there that the Shlah says that Hashem does not know the future. In fact
he cites Rashi at the end of the Chumash Devarim 34:1-3 who describes how
Hashem showed to Moshe Rabeinu the different generations that would live in
Eretz Yisrael and their activities.
However the Shlah Hakadosh also cites the Ramban Devarim 31:21 who appears
to make a distinction between Hashem's knowledge of the present which is a
"Yediya b'Poal" and His knowledge of the future, which is a "Yediya
b'Koach". Shlah writes at length about this.
Another important source on this sugya is of course the Mishnah in Pirkei
Avot 3:15 "All is foreseeen, but freedom of choice is given".<<
---
Moshe Tarko asks:
Regarding your earlier response about the difference between Magen and
Moshia, that is my point [which you are saying but not understanding the
implications of what you are saying] that there are others beside Hashem
that can and do act independently. Sometimes Hashem will stop them that's
not relevant.
And later you write that one is not allowed to do something dangerous while
doing a mitzvah and here you say that Hashem was happy that Avrohom did
something extremely dangerous and was rewarded for it. But if Hashem point
blank tells you to do something you can say "no, that is dangerous" and get
rewarded for not doing it???
And if Hashem is running the world - the way you are trying to advocate -
then BY DEFINITION when Hashem tells you directly to do something then
THERE IS NO DANGER! Doesn't He know the future?
[A mitzvah in the Torah, given to everyone for all generations, is
different than a direct conversation with Hashem.]
And why would He have to ask you to do it? He should be able to get you to
do it. Why would He have to argue (for a week acc. to ChaZal) with Moshe
Rabaynu to do His bidding if He does everything? He even "gives in" and
says "Okay Ahron will do X and you'll do Y etc. etc.". Doesn't sound like
He is "doing everything" to me.
And yes He can not know the future and still tell us what He is going to
do. He is Hakol Yachol. Nothing will stand in His way because He will
always win in any encounter. So that is not a proof that He knows the
future except that He knows that if anyone or thing goes against Him ...
He'll "neutralize" them.
I'll see if I can find that Shla Hakodesh.
----------------------------------------------
The Kollel replies:
Reb Moshe, thank you again for your very important comments.
For the moment I will just try and relate to the issue of how Avraham Avinu
relied on a miracle and put himself into danger.
It seems that there are two primary ways of understanding this.
1) The first way is to say that a very big Tzadik -- who is certain that
Hashem will make a Nes for him -- is allowed to rely on a miracle. There is
a source for this in Ta'anis 21a, where the Gemara tells us that Nachum Ish
Gamzu lived in a dangerous and shaky house but he said to his disciples
that he is certain that as long as he is inside the house, it will not fall
down.
We also find in Bava Basra 119b that the daughters of Tzelafchad waited
until they were 40 years old before getting married. The Rashbam (DH
u'Meshani) writes that they were certain that they were Tzadkaniyos and
that Hashem would therefore do a miracle for them like Yocheved, and they
would be able to give birth at an advanced age.
We also have the account in Berachos 33a of Rebbi Chanina ben Dosa putting
his heel over the hole where the poisonous lizard lived. He was sure that
Hashem would make a miracle for him.
In fact, the Talelei Oros (Parshas Vayeshev, page 134) cites the Griz
ha'Levi as explaining that this was the reason why Reuven threw Yosef into
the pit with the snakes. He was certain that Hashem would do a miracle for
Yosef the Tzadik.
If these Tzadikim were able to rely on the fact that Hashem would do a
miracle for them, Avraham Avinu was certainly able to rely on this.
2) The other way to understand this is to say that in order to do a Kidush
Hashem, one is allowed to rely on miracles. The Mesivta editon of Berachos
(33a) cites the Yefeh Mar'eh who explains that this was the Heter of Rebbi
Chanina ben Dosa. According to this approach, it certainly could be that
Avraham Avinu was permitted to put himself in danger in order to proclaim
to the whole world that Hashem created and rules the world.
However, it should be stressed that all of the above applies only to the
very great Tzadikim in the times of the Avos and the Mishnah. Ordinary
people may not do this sort of thing. In fact, the Sedeh Chemed (Ma'areches
Alef Klalim #18, DH v'Kasav) writes that the reason why the Torah did not
write explicitly about the miracles of Avraham in Ur Kasdim is that Avraham
put himself into danger. We cannot learn from the behavior of Avraham in
this regard because he was on such a high level which we do not approach.
3) I found that the Teshuvos ha'Rivash #118 cites the opinion of the Ralbag
that the knowledge of Hashem does not encompass what a person does out of
free choice before he does the action.
The Rivash argues with this sharply, because it suggests that there is
something lacking from the knowledge of Hashem.
Dovid Bloom
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