x-mailing-list: daf-disc...@shemayisrael.com
(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.)
_________________________________________________________________
THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST
brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
d...@dafyomi.co.il
[REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL]
________________________________________________________________
Shoftim 021: Permission To Marry Shevet Binyamin
David Goldman asked:
>>In Shoftim Rashi says that the mayse of Pesel Micha and Pilegesh Bagiva
took place in the time of Osniel after arriving in Eretz Yisroel. In 1
Shmuel 20:30 he says that Shaul was too shy to take a wife after his tribe
lost so many women. Since no sources suggest that Shaul and Yonasan lived
several hundred years, the only explanation I could think of is that Rashi
held that the decision to marry with Binyamin did not occur IMMEDIATELY
after the war against Binyamin but indeed several hundred years later. But
of course by that time if Binyamin's men had been excluded they would have
completely disappeared. So what could be the teyrutz for Rashi? Thanks.<<
The Kollel replied:
>>You ask a very good question. I found this question in the Mishpetsos
Zahav on Shoftim. The only answer I can give you is that the Medrashim
argue with each other. Those who hold that Shaul was alive at the time of
Pilegesh b’Givah must hold like the Radak and Abarbanel that Pilegesh
b’Givah happened at a much later time, and the Seder Olam cannot hold that
Shaul was alive at the time of Pilegesh b’Givah.<<
---
David Goldman adds:
For what it's worth, I spent Shabbos working on the issue of the Shaul and
came up with a solution: There were TWO events. One was initially when they
could not marry with reshus because of the shvua, and had to "take" the
daughters of Gilead in only that generation. The SECOND event was Tu B'Av,
which was a YOMTOF every year celebrating that the tribes could all
intermarry when girls would go out dancing. It just happened that the shy
Shaul was around on that day and his wife to be "took" him because of his
shyness, not because she was one of the girls of Gilead after that war.
Thus, the distinction between the two different events would demonstrate
there is NO STIRA in Rashi between Shoftim and 1 Shmuel 20:30.
Certain midrashim state that the story of Rus happened back in the days of
Devorah *kepshuto.* But they must deal with the tmiha of the fact that the
Gemara itself tells us that Rus saw Shlomo, which would have made her over
300 years old. Not only that, but what about Oved and Yishai? Were they
bochurim for a hundred years or more in an age when boys were becoming
fathers at 10 years old?! And not only would Boaz have been a couple of
hundred years old by the time of Devorah, but by definition if we take the
gemara Bava Basra 91a literally then Elimelech and Naomi had to been
extremely old when they went to Moav at the time of Devorah, and would
their two sons have been bochurim for close to 100 years and then marry
gentiles *kepshuto* despite the fact that the gemara calls them gedolei
hador as bochurim back in Beis Lechem (which itself is a kashe, how could
bochurim be considered gedolei hador)??!!
Because certainly if Rashi is bothered by the possibility that Boaz would
be able to have a child at 300, why wouldn't he say the same thing
regarding Elimelech and Naomi?!
The only alternative is that the midrash is telling certain kinds of
complicated soydos in ruchnius about the origin of the mayse of Rus rather
than it being a story kepshuto that contradict the gemara in Bava Basra
91a.
David Goldman, USA
----------------------------------------------
The Kollel replies:
Sorry for the delay in my reply.
1 You offer a very attractive answer. However Rashi sounds like he is
referring to the initial stage when the men of Binyamin were forced to
?grab? their wives, because he says that when the men of Binyamin grabbed
their wives, Shaul was shy to do this.
2 The Medrash ha'Godol Parshas va'Yechi indeed states that Bo'az, Oveid and
Yishai each lived around five hundred years.
Dov Freedman
>>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<<
The *D*AFYOMI *A*DVANCEMENT *F*ORUM, brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf
Write to us at d...@dafyomi.co.il or visit us at http://www.dafyomi.co.il
Tel/Fax(US): 646-820-3315; Fax(Isr): (02) 591-6024; Tel(Isr): (02) 651-5004
_______________________________________________
Daf-discuss mailing list
Daf-discuss@shemayisrael.co.il
http://mail.shemayisrael.co.il/mailman/listinfo/daf-discuss_shemayisrael.co.il
