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THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST
brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
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Re: Sanhedrin 077b: Removing the ladder before the end of the fall
Aaron Glatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked:
>>Is Rashi referring to removing the ladder after the push but before
the fall? This is quite a "dochak" pshat. But if not, what does rashi mean???<<
The Kollel replied:
>>Your understanding of Rashi is correct. The perpetrator pushed his victim
>>with one hand and removed the ladder from the pit a moment later with the
>>other hand (see Margoliyos ha'Yam). I did not find in the Me'iri any
>>allusion to an alternate translation of the Gemara's words.<<
Aaron Glatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asks further:
My difficulty with Rashi's understanding of the gemara as the rav outlined
it remains. The push is not the murder weapon. It is the hevel at the
bottom of the pit. I thought this is analagous to the case of sof chama
lavo - where he is patur. If the gemara is learned as the Rav explained
rashi, the pusher should be patur because it is sof hevel lavo - the hevel
is not at the top of the pit - it will only be ppresent once he falls into
the bottom of the pit. But even if this is incorrect - it is difficult to
argue that rashi is talking about such an unlikely scenarion (pushing and
removing the ladder almost simultaneously) when there is a simpler pshat as
I outline in the next paragraph. Thus my difficulty with the pshat as exponded.
In my Meiri, the meiri clearly states the case is after he reaches the
bottom. The chidush (I presumed) of this case is that even the pusher
himself is liable - the same chidush as the next case of removing the tris.
The cases appeared to me to be analogous - not necessarily that each is
teaching a separate new chidush.
Chanukah sameach.
Aaron
-------
The Kollel replies:
(a) If this would be "Sof Hevel Lavo," then even in your case, when the
ladder was removed after the victim reached the bottom, the pusher should
be Patur because of Sof Hevel Lavo (and not because of the presence of the
ladder).
In truth, it is not considered Sof Hevel Lavo since the Hevel is already
there when the victim is pushed to the bottom of the pit. Even though the
pusher's hands are not dragging the victim to the bottom of the pit, the
force of his push is dragging the victim there, so it is considered as if
he has dragged the victim *into* Hevel.
(b) I am not sure where you saw that the Meiri argues, nor do I see why
Rashi's case does not parallel, or is more "Dochek" than, the next case in
the Gemara -- where someone shoots an arrow at a victim holding a shield,
and *while the arrow is in the air* the shooter somehow removes the
victim's shield, allowing the arrow to reach him.
(c) If the pusher removes the ladder *after* the victim reaches bottom it
is obvious that this will not worsen his sin of pushing, since the act of
pushing is already finished. It is no different from having a third party
remove the ladder, as I wrote in my first reply. The Chidush is when the
pusher removes the ladder *before* his act of pushing is finished (i.e. the
victim has not yet reached bottom). Even in such a case he remains Patur.
You are right to point out that, interestingly, none of the Acharonim seem
to discuss this Rashi.
Chanukah Same'ach,
M. Kornfeld
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