On 22/04/15 07:59, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> 
> Thanks, will get back to this later on today, by Friday
> worst case.

Sorry, I didn't get a chance to look that over in detail
and now probably won't tomorrow either, so I've requested
IETF LC start and I'll take a peek at it again during
the LC.

Thanks,
S.


> 
> Cheers,
> S.
> 
> On 22/04/15 07:13, Viktor Dukhovni wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 04:27:33PM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>>
>>> - 1.2, 2nd para: s/trusted public keys/public keys/
>>> - 1.2, 2nd para: s/a new/the/
>>> - 1.2, 3rd para: s/directly delegated/delegated/
>>> - 1.2, 3rd para: s/data integrity/data origin authentication/
>>>        TLS provides data integrity for application PDUs in all cases
>>> - 1.3, 2nd para: s/traditional PKI/traditional Web PKI/
>>> - 1.3.1, s/such as the use of PKIX// I don't think that says
>>>          anything really and I've no clue what "use of PKIX" might
>>>          mean exactly - better left out I'd say
>>> - 1.3.2, s/A PKIX TLS client/A TLS client/
>>> - 2.1.1, 2nd para: s/must be used/MUST be used/? Not sure
>>>        myself, but I'd make it uppercase for emphasis. (Other people
>>>        will disagree from all points of view though, no matter what
>>>        you do or don't do here;-)
>>> - 2.2, I'd re-phrase "A connection to the MTA MUST be made
>>>        using authenticated and encrypted TLS" as "Any connection to the
>>>        MTA MUST be made using authenticated and encrypted TLS" The current
>>>        text could be read to say that the client MUST make the connection,
>>>        whereas I think you just mean if you do make a connection it MUST
>>>        use TLS.
>>
>> Adopted in -16, please check.
>>
>>> - 2.1.1, the term anchorless should probbaly get a mention in
>>>        1.1 with a forward pointer to 2.1.1. Or maybe you can avoid
>>>        the term since it's not used much. (Just in 2 adjacent
>>>        paragraphs.)
>>
>> Rewritten (improved I think, thanks) in -16 to avoid "anchorless".
>>
>>> - 2.1.1, what does "securely opted out" mean?
>>
>> Rewritten in -16 to clarify.
>>
>>> - 2.2, Could "authenticated" here mean mutually authenticated
>>> with TLS client certs? If not, maybe say so. (And for the
>>> last sentence before 2.2.1, what about the client cert names
>>> - what's done with those?)
>>
>> Per the list discussion, no client authentication.  Definition
>> rephrased in -16 to make the meaning more clear.
>>
>>> - 2.2.1, last para: What is the other, to which the
>>> "Otherwise" at the start of the para applies? That confused
>>> me.
>>
>> Rewritten in -16 to clarify this as 'When not "insecure"'.
>>
>>> - 2.2.2: bullet 1 - what's that mean? (In this context) This
>>> section generally has a bunch of paragraphs that start with a
>>> conditional, and it's not clear how they all fit.  Could you
>>> add some more structure (e.g. pseudo-code) to clarify?
>>
>> Reworked the bullets and paragraph above to make this clearer
>> in -16.
>>
>>> - 3.1: All but the first and last two paras of this seem to
>>> be repetitive of 6698 and 7218. I don't see that it's a good
>>> idea to do that. (In what is already an over-long document.)
>>
>> Fat trimmed in -16, leaving just the meat and bones.
>>
>>> - 3.1.3, last sentence: is that needed? It seems to
>>> invalidate the sentence before. (And it's vague.)
>>
>> NEW (in -16):
>>
>>     SMTP client treatment of TLSA RRs with certificate usages
>>     PKIX-TA(0) or PKIX-EE(1) is undefined.  As with any other
>>     unsuppored certificate usage, SMTP clients MAY treat such
>>     records as "unusable"
>>
>>> - 3.2.2, various places: "MUST be included" where?
>>
>> Reworded in -16.
>>
>>> - 8.1, para 1: We've (the IETF) just deprecated SSL 3.0, [1]
>>> so don't you need to reference that and say to not do that?
>>> At least the MAY at the end of that paragraph seems not to
>>> conform with the BCP. I think a ref to [1] is needed.
>>
>> Simplified text in -16 omits all mention of SSL 3.0.  Just reminds
>> the reader that use of SNI precludes SSL 2.0 HELLO.
>>
>>> - 9.2, 2nd para: isn't that repetitive? That seems like a bad
>>> idea.
>>
>> In -16 dropped the repetition of non-support for usage 0/1.
>>
>>> - 1.3.2, The MX lookup is vulnerable as stated but isn't the
>>> A/AAAA similarly vulnerable? I think you ought note that too,
>>> but also that this specification can mean that DNSSEC for
>>> that lookup is not needed based on the name in the MX
>>> response being bound (via x.509 or tlsa) to the TLS server
>>> private key. (Well, that assumes I've gotten that correct:-)
>>> Without DNSSEC for the MX name->address mapping a bad actor
>>> could however, insert themselves into the path and gain
>>> whatever can be gained via traffic analysis of the SMTP/TLS
>>> session.
>>
>> Declined.
>>
>>> - 2.2, 3rd bullet: Is it a good idea to mix the insecure TLSA
>>> RRSet and validated non-existence in one bullet? I find it
>>> confusing. Maybe it'd be better to have two bullets even if
>>> the new one says "do as above."
>>
>> Any guidance from the WG on this?  I neither see this change as a
>> compelling improvement, nor am I strongly opposed to it.  Deferred
>> for now.
>>
>>> - 3.1.2 - does the MUST include TA in the TLS handshake
>>> conflict with common implementations of 5246?  5246 section
>>> 7.4.2, says that the TA MAY be omitted, but I wonder if we
>>> might be causing ourselves trouble (some) with running code.
>>
>> As discussed on the list, this is not a conflict nor a problem with
>> running code.
>>
>> Section 9.2 mentioned the the Microsoft Exchange issue where servers
>> are unable to send self-signed trust-anchors, and therefore must
>> not use them in DANE-TA(2) records, employing intermediate TAs
>> instead.  In -16, shortened and moved that text to 3.1.2.
>>
>>> - 8.2: This is alrady handled by the generic UTA BCP. Why is
>>> it needed here?
>>
>> This discusses use anonymous cipher suites in SMTP opportunistic
>> TLS, which is not covered in the UTA BCP.  Section retained.
>>
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