On Thursday 06 July 2006 09:38, Holger Levsen wrote: > Hi, > > so last night I couldn't fall asleep (and took some notes) and tonite I > woke up after after a really short time of sleep and couldn't sleep more. > > So this document is the result of thinking last night (with taking notes..) > after+about the meeting what rational thoughts I have for not being in > favor of Sarajevo anymore. Until debconf6 I didn't _like_ the UK bid and > was neutral about Sarajevo. Debconf6 showed the importance of the localteam > and I became in favor of Edinburgh... > > > 1. From many comments from stockholm (in RL (dc6), on the list and on IRC) > I got the impression he is clearly biased in favor of Sarajevo (and I fail > to understand why). So much, that it somewhat puts Sarajevo down for me. > I'm aware that this is not a a completly rational argument, but I want to > share this with you. And I have rational arguments for my impression of > stockholm being biased: > > One example the "we need the dorm option" argument, because (stockholm > basically says) "debconf will grow each year, this is good, and we need to > pay for everything this is the (not really changeable, not really > discussable) way of debconf." - Of course he can say and think what he > wants, and of course his thoughts are the thoughts of someone who has been > deeply involved in debconf the last years (from the beginning?), but I dont > think his "forecast" is accurate (unlimited growth?) nor what I think is > healthy for DebConf.
No, we could save lot of money on the dorm option. I will check if the United Nations building by the dorm is usable for auditorium purposes. It does not hurt to check. > > I'm also quite disappointed that there is no costs comparison spreadsheet > so far (even or if only with estimated numbers (you can easily put many > calculations in one spreadsheet)) - if stockholm is the main organizer and > says "only the dorm option is doable" I want to have this backed up by > (comprehensible) numbers from him. > > Surely it also didnt help that we moved^wran from debconf6 to debconf7, > instead of having a discussion about his leadership like many wanted. I've > read a very good summary on this (the perceived problems with his > leadership), which the authour didnt want to publish anymore after the > delegation happened. And I heard many people from the team complain about > this at or shortly after debconf6. > > (After saying this I should/want also state, that I do like, value and > trust (in general, as said, I'm put off by his current behaviour) stockholm > very much. As much as I am unhappy with some of his behaviour at dc6, I've > been far more happy with him than unhappy ;) > > > 2. Unclear flight costs for Sarajevo, while Edinburgh will certainly be > cheaper for many europeans and us-americans. According to stockholms travel > agent the difference in average will be 100-150 euros, if booked well in > advance. While I do believe this is true for europeans (but not all of them > can book well in advance, btw), I've only heard about much higher costs > from outside europe. Also, people who will need visas might also not be > able to book well in advance. > > > 3. Unclear Visa situation. According to Sapphire (and contrary to official > information on official bosnian websites), people can fly to Sarajevo and > get a visa at the airport. If they dont want to risk wasting money and time > by doing so and then not getting the visa, e.g. latin americans either need > to travel to argentina to the bosnien embassy there or to the US (and > probably need another visa for that, and of course this is also expensive.) > > http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20060619.110359.78423ced.en.html > only states "we could request" (which might be denied), and there is no > answer to the concern raised in > http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20060627.151735.c5bfa627.en.html so > far. > > http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20060618.002949.ac6946bf.en.html is > where the visa thread started. (And where you can find visa information > about both countries.) > We have had a number of big international events so far, both conferences, sports events, fair etc. And all the participants got their visas at the airport without any fuss. We are still not a Schengen country, so it is much easier for people to get a Bosnian visa. Information I got directly from Bosnian goverment, Ministry of Foreign Affairs. > > 4. The USA and Japan both warn there citizens about Bosnia (see > http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20060617.011732.497e9cce.en.html). > While I _do_ think this is mostly goverment propaganda, I fear this might > influence the amount of hardware we will get borrowed. Or to put it > different, I'm sure we will get more and better stuff lent in Edinburgh. > (Similar for the network, it sounds like we can get decent network the > Hotel Therme (people from localteam working at the hotels ISP), while it > sounds like we can get very good network in Edinburgh (three independent > ISPs want to sponsor debconf by now, maybe more, maybe gigabit). > > > 5. From the venues itself, I think both options sound good. Edinburgh > sounds nice with being in the city and Sarajevo sounds nice being locked up > in a hotel outside the side :) Really. Both aspects (in the side or in a > hotel more outside) have their pros and cons, but both (venues alone) sound > equally good to me. I think I do want to state, that Scotland also sounds > interesting to me. Sure, Sarajevo sounds even more interesting, but that > doesn't mean Scotland is boring or like all the rest of Europe (haha! like > Europe is the same everywhere. We are not there yet.) > > But being cultural interesting is only a minor aspect when choosing the > place. And from the places itself, both sound good to me. > > > 6. We don't know the Sarajevo localteam and they're hardly involved with > Debian. If they fail, we can only say "oh no". If the Edinburgh team fails, > noone will want to co-maintain packages with them anymore :) Also, from > what I've seen in the last three month, I'm far more impressed with the > work of the EDI team, both technically and socially. You have not been folowing Bosnian team really. Please see on our wiki page / ask delegates who were here. > > 7. Some women have raised concerns about Sarajevo and the localteams > attitude has mostly been to deny these concerns instead of addressing them. > This is like being told the water in Mexico is drinkable instead of being > able to make an informed deciscion. > Not true again, please see the backlog of lastnight's meeting and you will see first hand answers from women to women. > 8. While I agree (and very much like) that DebConf is also about spreading > the ideas of free software, I do think DebConf is mostly an event to > improve and strenghten Debian, both socially and technologically. And... > > > 9. after all the stress at debconf6, I want to have a "good (as in > productive) and easy (as in fun)" debconf this time for sure. I've seen far > more indications that Edinburgh is a good choice for this than Sarajevo. > > > regards, > Holger, who will now enjoy breakfast... ;) Cheers, Safir -- Dojdov pak tajno moja, zvezda prakam da te povika... _______________________________________________ Debconf-team mailing list [email protected] http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
